Sax on the Web Forum banner

the old juliard school Allard method

69K views 172 replies 46 participants last post by  Barrywin 
#1 ·
hi guys,
i decided to post a link to these written Joe Allard school saxophone lessons i made for someone.
They are basically what i remember of the first basic concept lessons from the old juliard school saxophone department.
my teacher george was a graduate student in the juliard saxophone department at the time of the lessons and one of joes best students.
only one saxophone student was accepted to do graduate work at juliard each year.
they might be helpfull for someone who wants to transition to allard school of playing
or if someone just wants to understand various allard school exercises like overtone exercises in the proper original context.
I'm not sure i have ever read these basics put together in writing before.
but one will often read about the overtone exercises out of context.
These lessons took place in the late 70s.
this is only the basic concepts and will suffer some loss in written form.
everything that came after revolved around these basic ideas.

http://patriot.net/~gary/sax/index.html
 
See less See more
#41 ·
The pitch-bending throat exercise with the horn is:

Play a bis Bb, either octave (you pick, but lets say, lower)

Play the Bb, then add a finger & play the A.

Go back to the Bb, with the sound of the A in your ear, and WITH YOUR LARYNX, lower the pitch of the Bb to match the A.
Then finger the A to compare.

"Toggle" back & forth between fingerings & try to stay with the same pitch (A).

You can also play the Bb, slur down to A with your LARYNX, then slur back to the Bb, in time. ("Da Ooh Ah")
Then do the same fingering A, with A to G#, then G to F#, etc...

To start to get the feeling of a "loose larynx", play a C major scale "backwards", in other words, start on middle C, but HOLD DOWN THE OCTAVE KEY & try to play a descending C scale in the lower octave whilst holding down the octave key. Don't worry about tone, just see if you can make the pitches, its going to sound like crap.
See how far you can go. See how far you can go after doing it a week...a month..

Then play the ascending C scale, from middle C to high C, with the octave key OFF.

That exercise will help you understand the feeling you need in your larynx to accomplish the other stuff.

ALSO:
DO THIS STUFF SLOW!! Really slow. The point is to really feel it & listen & judge, not to race through it, like, "OK, I did my Allard stuff, now time to play licks"
If you only worked on 1 exercise a week, but really did it carefully & slow, you'll really see the benefits.
Its a slow process.

Thats all I'm giving out...I have to charge for more.

WARNING: If you guys out there really work on this stuff, and get good at it, you may want to SELL your HIGH BAFFLE MPCS!!
 
#42 ·
Are you saying that Allard students don't play high baffle pieces? (Real question, not being a smarty)
 
#45 ·
I've been working on this stuff for years. And yet I can not for the life of me change pitch either on the mouthpiece alone or on the horn without loosening or tightening the jaw to some degree.

I can play the overtone series without tightening the jaw. Moving the jaw forward helps.

When playing scales on the mouthpiece alone I must tighten and loosen the jaw. Moving the jaw forward does not change the pitch. In fact, I can move the jaw forward and still maintain a steady pitch

I can play the entire range of the horn with or without the octave key and not move the jaw. I can't say that I feel much difference in throat. But I can't do a pitch bend unless I drop my jaw.

The amount of jaw movement I'm talking about is small (especially when just playing the mouthpiece). I wonder if people are overlooking the fact that they are in fact unknowingly moving the jaw when changing throat position.

I would still like to hear someone say definitively that they can play a scale on the mouthpiece and not move the jaw at all.
 
#47 ·
I would still like to hear someone say definitively that they can play a scale on the mouthpiece and not move the jaw at all.
I can't do that without changing tongue position, which I don't want to do much for that drill. I have to move the jaw forward and back while changing the throat to get this scale out.
 
#46 ·
Brecker played high baffle after his injury. My teacher doesn't play really high baffle pieces, neither do I, and I just don't see the point for me to play one. I can play plenty bright on my mouthpiece, but also have a lot of tones that I can get. I find that the higher baffle pieces tend to force a particular sound on me, which I don't like. I don't know if that's a dogmatic Allard thing, something I learned from my teacher or what, but it's just the way I feel about my own pieces.
 
#49 ·
In my case I've watched myself in the mirror and the jaw movement is so small that I can't always see it. But I know for a fact that it's moving. So I'm not sure that'd work although I'd certainly be interested in seeing video of anyone who claims to be able to play an octave (or more ) on the mouthpiece without moving the jaw.

As for the larynx, I've looked on line over the years and found a few studies on the role of the larynx in saxophone playing. Studies seemed to show that the position of the larynx was relatively steady except for the altissimo range.

Experienced Saxophonists Learn to Tune Their Vocal Tracts
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/319/5864/776?ijkey=jIXC/xH6hwYS2&keytype=ref&siteid=sci

Saxophones and the vocal tract: the acoustics of saxophone players
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/SaxTract.html

Vocal-Tract Influence during Saxophone Performance
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/vti/

I still don't know what to think. Personally, it's clear to me that my throat plays a much greater role than these studies seem to show, much in the way that the position of the larynx changes as it would when singing. But without jaw movement my pitch does not change. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this not so much for myself as a player but for those instances when I'm teaching and these issues come up. You don't want your student to be going through any sorts of unnatural contortions in order to try and change pitch with the throat. It should be natural. And yet as much as I want to agree with the Allard method, I can't prove it.

As for the physics involved, in order to lower a pitch we have to make the column of air longer, right? So in this pitch bend exercise, is the throat expanding? Seems hard to imagine that the throat could expand that much. I'm inclined to think that our jaw position is playing a role, as it does in a jaw vibrato.
 
#51 ·
interesting discussion
I don't know if this helps or not but i can weigh in on it. (i'm not the greatest player in the world -- duhhh)
cold i can only play about a 6th (b concert down to a d#)solidly on the mouthpiece without moving my jaw at all. I am certain of this. there is no small movement at all.
I just had my wife put her hand on my jaw bone and tell me if it's moving and she said no.
I imagine after i warm up i will be able to do the other two notes or possibly much more. warmed up for me happens only after hours of playing and is a pretty drastic shift.
for me there is no nerve energy moving to my jaw or lip that could move it.
in a 100% relaxed state all energy is withdrawn from the muscle. this means there can be no movement of preasure or lip or jaw or anything else.
I have seen where other people use their jaw in and out, i do not do that to such a pronounced degree.
this happens i think to a very small degree just in response to the large amount of and changes in air pressure.
again its important to realize that these exercises are just that, exercises.
they are the means to an end but not the end in itself.
i do change the amount of mouthpiece in my mouth and my lip changes kind of floats in and out covering or uncovering mostly using the reed as friction to cause the lip to turn in or out.
i was taught that the amount of reed you cover or uncover was almost subconscious and not something you think about.
i do not find in my own playing a great need to position my jaw wildly differently for different registers.
I don't like the way the guy sound doing it on the youtube video Black Obelisk pointed out.
when it comes to perfomance and things like this it boils down to art and not a playing method.
what the guy in the video is doing comes off like a performance affect to me. the uneven tone caused by it sounds like a mistake from an artistic point of view.
there are alot of guys that play that way.
there are alot of guys that don't. my personal thing is much more like say pharoah sanders whose lip position is much more fixed and the tone is more consistent from register to register.
rleitch:
It really doesn't take any preasure on the reed to play. your lip is just a fulcrum. it's dead it does nothing.
it's just a stop on the reed. there is no pushing.
a good way to get a feel for it is to play way out of the side of your mouth.
you don't have any muscles over there to mess you up.
don't play that way all the time though like kenny g.

I do remember the pitch bending exercise now thanks to Black Obelisk.
I'm glad someone can contribute further and teach and remind me.

EE NYC: i read the study about the vocal tract which i found interesting.
they don't say how many players they tested or if they tested player who have been doing overtone exercises for many years.
I would LOVE to see the results of that study done specifically on one of joes better students like tenor player Ken Hitchcock or someone like that who really lives the life of a player in this style.
The high notes or altisimo notes measured in the study are a natural part of the tone of all the notes inculding the low notes.
anything you do to make the altisimo notes you can do to bring those notes into the tonal spectrum of low notes.
every note you play on the saxophone is essentially a multiphonic.

The stuff Jones posted is the initial Joe Allard beginning concepts, but isn't the entire thing.
i was just trying to get someone started, i obviously left small amouts out. AND my knowledge is very limited. as i said before i'm kind of a hack player.
i was not a very good player when i took these lessons and alot of it went straight over my head.

You mean reed adjusting. Allard taught reed adjustment, not reed making. He taught how to balance reeds. Many teachers taught the same concept. It's not magic.
whatever , we started off with vandoren blue box #5s because we couldn't get full on blanks.
i think i knew it wasn't actual hoo doo magic.
it seemd ike magic to ME because i couldn't do it. to this day i still can't do it and get the type of mind blowing results those guys were getting.
If you can do it and get the same type of mind blowing results they were getting then i think YOU can do magic TOO !
all bow to the reed mystic. i'l sacrifice a goat if youl make me a reed.

Brecker chewed his mouthpiece like crazy when playing
OK and this is an important distinction.
joe taught that when you were performing you were in "all bets were off" mode.
these tecniques i described were for PRACTICE not perfomance.
performance is about dreaming emotions and going into some rather sublime levels of consciousness. not about thinking about lip position.

Are you saying that Allard students don't play high baffle pieces? (Real question, not being a smarty)
the idea was to have lots of different type of mouthpieces for different styles.
Bob berg was there and others who at times played on very modern mouthpieces.
I don't thiink anything about the thing dictates large chambers.
it certainly allows you to play on very large chambers if you want.
 
#53 ·
rleitch:
It really doesn't take any preasure on the reed to play. your lip is just a fulcrum. it's dead it does nothing.
it's just a stop on the reed. there is no pushing.
I get this as a general idea--i.e. try to eliminate muscle tension--but I have add some kind of pressure or no sound comes out at all, right. I guess if it's not the lip muscles, it's got to be the teeth/jaw doing it.

these tecniques i described were for PRACTICE not perfomance.
Great point! One thing I have been finding is that, as I work towards a better, more relaxed and flexible, embouchure in practice sessions, I tend to fall back to my old pitchy and bitey self when I get on stage with a loud band. Can the Allard approach go head to head against a Marshall stack?

Rory
 
#55 ·
Guys,

I'm a little surprised by some of the reactions here.

Just be cause you CAN'T do something, right off the bat, or after maybe working on it for a week, or a month, or even a year, DOES NOT mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE or there's something wrong with the concept.

ALL this stuff is based on sound ideas (no pun intended) & has worked for 100s of players, for, like, what, 70 years or more.

I, and many others that I have known, and played with over the years, can do all of these exercises, can bend pitches with only their larynx, etc., etc., because most of us have been doing these things for 10, 20, 30 or 40 years.

One thing everyone of them probably has in common is, NO ONE could do all of these exercises correct the first time anyone showed them to us, or mastered it in a week, month, etc.

You can "get" all of this, do all of this, but NOT in a week, or month, or year, or maybe even more time.

It's a slow process.
 
#60 ·
Guys,
I'm a little surprised by some of the reactions here. Just be cause you CAN'T do something, right off the bat, or after maybe working on it for a week, or a month, or even a year, DOES NOT mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE or there's something wrong with the concept.
I'm not criticizing the concept, I'm just trying to figure out why I can't seem to do it. I was first shown these concepts (by an Allard student) 30 years ago. Later worked at length with another Allard student. Was told I was doing it correctly but I pointed out that I had to move my jaw. Was told some small degree of jaw movement may be unavoidable but that it's the larynx that's involved. In closely watching that person's embouchure I did see movement in the muscles around the mouth and I have to think that there are variations in pressure on the reed that are affecting pitch. Or maybe I'm wrong. I do see that the larynx is involved. But I've never been able to change pitch without some jaw movement. That's not meant to counter anything you're saying. I'm just trying to figure this out...still...
 
#56 ·
Yea Black Obelisk makes the most important point that could be made here.
the exercises are something that in the begining seem imposible but you try to do them and basically fail.
the main point is that you try to do them honestly and not for to long and you don't focus on the end product too much if at all.
you don't worry about if you can actually do it you just try.
trying builds muscle.
Its like trying to do a pushup but you can't do a pushup. one day suddenly you can.
and the major point is that you don't develope cheats like moving your jaw up and down to make it seem like you can do it but actually arent trying.
 
#58 ·
Hi guys!

I've been working on several of these exercises for about a year--the reed only one is new to me, and the sensation of feeling the reed vibrating against the surface of my bottom lip (without sub-toning) has really shown me a whole other level of embouchure relaxation. Please don't confuse asking questions with being contradictory (if that's what's happening).

I found a pretty good answer to my question on the joeallard.org website:

In the formation of the saxophone embouchure, four essential elements are generally considered: the upper teeth, upper lip, lower teeth and lower lip. Some saxophone pedagogues discuss these elements separately, while others may ignore an element entirely. In his own teaching and playing, Allard integrated all four elements.

He taught that the upper teeth and upper lip are a pair that receives and opposes the pressure exerted by the combination of the lower lip and lower teeth.89 Allard often paraphrased Newton's third law of motion: "to every action there is always opposed an equal reaction"; thus, if a body exerts force then another body must oppose it. In his conception of embouchure, the lower teeth in the jaw are the body of exertion; the upper teeth are the body of opposition.

One widely taught approach to saxophone embouchure advocates balanced pressure all the way around the reed and mouthpiece combination Larry Teal described this as the embouchure "wheel," asserting "the lips should circle the mouthpiece with an equal pressure toward the center, much the same as an elastic band."90 Allard's investigation and experimentation caused him to refute this approach to embouchure. He believed it focused the sound in a narrow overtone spectrum by restricting the vibrations at the side of the reed. "I've taken a rubber band and a drawstring and wrapped [them] around the reed; all I could see was that it shortened the length at the sides of the reed and left the reed open in the middle."91 Allard advocated the opposite, exerting the pressure at the heavier center of the reed, thus allowing the sides of the reed to vibrate freely. This creates a greater mixture of overtones, and a more resonant sound.

The contrast with the Teal "wheel" really makes the idea clear (at least for me).

Thanks again for all the comments and explanations: this stuff is awesome!
 
#62 ·
Black Obelisk could you PLEASE post a bit more about the "reed grabbing".
everything joe taught had some conceptual framework that went with it.
whats the theory and are there excercises specifically to this concept ?
I remember something about uncovering the reed more for the longer vibrations as in low notes.
and less for the shorter vibrations of the high notes.
I find this usefull especially when faced with the dreaded soprano saxophone.
BUT the video you pointed us too was the opposite.
I am assuming (perhaps falsely) this has to do with trying to balance volume ? counteract the louder aspect of the low notes ?
if you don't mind taking the time to explain further i would apreciate.
 
#65 ·
The vocal cords oscillate because we make them vibrate with air. When blowing a sax, none of that is happening unless you're growling. So, I don't really see how the vocal cords would influence how the reed vibrates? If I remember well, the change in pitch of the vocal cords is due to the fact that, by contracting and relaxing the muscle we effectively lengthen or shorten the vocal cords hence producing different pitches. The only analogy that makes sense to me is that reed grabbing thing as the reed becomes the vibrating factor that produces the pitch, replacing the vocal cords. In theory the reed would act like the vocal cords of the sax. Right?
 
#64 ·
I'm not criticizing the concept, I'm just trying to figure out why I can't seem to do it. I was first shown these concepts (by an Allard student) 30 years ago. Later worked at length with another Allard student. Was told I was doing it correctly but I pointed out that I had to move my jaw. Was told some small degree of jaw movement may be unavoidable but that it's the larynx that's involved. In closely watching that person's embouchure I did see movement in the muscles around the mouth and I have to think that there are variations in pressure on the reed that are affecting pitch. Or maybe I'm wrong. I do see that the larynx is involved. But I've never been able to change pitch without some jaw movement. That's not meant to counter anything you're saying. I'm just trying to figure this out...still...
i'm afraid but not sure that you might have to accept that you haven't been doing the exercise at all but rather a falsified version of it. if you were using pressure on the reed to change the pitch then you simply werent' doing the exercise. the reason why you can't do it now is the same reason anyone else who has never done it can't do it.
 
#67 ·
i'm afraid but not sure that you might have to accept that you haven't been doing the exercise at all but rather a falsified version of it.
That's clear. Hence my desire to figure out just what physical action is taking place that affects the pitch of the horn. I'm finding that the tongue position is not enough to cause the range of pitch change we're talking about. Additionally, attempts to put my larynx in the same position as it would be when vocalizing a pitch does not work.

the reason why you can't do it now is the same reason anyone else who has never done it can't do it.
And what would that reason be? What is it that I'm missing?

Vocal cords are misnamed. The vocal folds are more like the lips of a brass player. Just because they are not closed together as they are when singing or speaking does not mean they cannot get longer and shorter and change mouthpiece pitch or saxophone timbre.
According to the encyclopedia (see below) , when the vocal cords are not engaged they are at rest along the walls of the larynx. So how is it that they would be engaged (taut and stretched across the larynx) when playing the saxophone? And if they were, what effect could that have on the pitch of the saxophone?

EDIT: I see in one of the studies that I posted previously that the vocal folds are adducted when playing. Seems they are "engaged" to regulate the air flow even as they do not vibrate. END EDIT

I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's just that I want to understand the mechanics of what's happening and it's not clear to me from the instructions I've heard just how this works.

Come to think of it, I don't really understand why the pitch changes when doing a jaw vibrato.

EDIT: Unless it's because by biting down we put more of the reed in contact with the side rails of the mouthpiece thereby shortening the length of the reed that's actually vibrating thereby raising the pitch (and conversely lowering it when we relax the jaw). Sorry, never really thought this through before. I'm here to learn something...duh...END EDIT

Columbia Encyclopedia:

larynx (lâr'ĭngks), organ of voice in mammals. Commonly known as the voice box, the larynx is a tubular chamber about 2 in. (5 cm) high, consisting of walls of cartilage bound by ligaments and membranes, and moved by muscles. The human larynx extends from the trachea, or windpipe. In humans, part of the structure may protrude noticeably at the front of the neck, forming the so-called Adam's apple. Within the larynx lie the vocal cords, or vocal folds, a pair of elastic folds in the lining of mucous membrane. During silent breathing, the vocal cords rest along the larynx walls, leaving the air passage fully open. During speech, the cords are stretched across the larynx; air released from the lungs is forced between the cords, causing them to vibrate and so produce voice. Various muscles adjust the tension of the cords as well as the space between them, thus varying the pitch of the sounds produced. The more taut the cords, the higher the pitch. Since men's larynges are usually larger than women's, male vocal cords tend to be longer and the male voice is thus deeper. Growth may double the length of the vocal cords in the male adolescent; hence his dramatic "change of voice." Over the vocal cords extend parallel bands of protective tissue, the false vocal cords. The larynx controls pitch and volume of vocal utterances-it produces initial sounds, while the articulation of these sounds results from the manipulation of teeth, tongue, palate, and lips. Above them, at the opening of the larynx into the throat, hangs the epiglottis, a flap of cartilage that helps to seal off the lower respiratory tract during swallowing so that food and other foreign elements do not enter it.
 
#68 ·
Here's a video I found of a saxophonist (Dr. Brian Utley) demonstrating pitch variation on a saxophone mouthpiece. He says he is "voicing" the notes. His text uses the analogy of the tongue moving as it would when whistling.

http://www.tsmp.org/band/saxophone/utley_buzzing_mouthpiece.html

He says that when starting a note forte and making a decrescendo, the pitch will rise if the embouchure and tongue position remain steady. I tried that but if anything the pitch stayed steady and maybe even tended to drop a bit.

He says that pitch change on the mouthpiece is the result of moving the tongue and not the jaw. But I can play a steady tone on the mouthpiece while moving my tongue up, down, forward, back and using "eee", "ahh" and "errr" syllables. Why should that be? That would seem contradictory to the idea that voicing changes the pitch on the saxophone.

I can change the color of my tone with these methods but this idea of pitch change remains elusive...

EDIT Last thought for the evening...maybe jaw and throat work together but for me at least, I don't think that the use of either one alone is sufficient with respect to tone, color and pitch. In a way, that would almost seem obvious except for the claims I've heard that hold that it's the throat alone and not any variations in jaw pressure. Or am I simply off base? END EDIT
 
#69 ·
He says that pitch change on the mouthpiece is the result of moving the tongue and not the jaw. But I can play a steady tone on the mouthpiece while moving my tongue up, down, forward, back and using "eee", "ahh" and "errr" syllables. Why should that be? That would seem contradictory to the idea that voicing changes the pitch on the saxophone. END EDIT
I don't like "err" as a tongue position. It seems counter to what I've learned. There are guys here, yourself included, asking questions which I'm not expert enough to answer without guessing, and I don't want to do that. I've got theories I share with students, but I don't want to seem like I'm pretending to be an authority on Allard's teachings, especially since I never studied with the man.

I can only say and show what I know. I know it is possible to change mouthpiece pitch without using jaw motion, and to change it by using forward and back jaw motion. Here's a video I made to demonstrate. Forgive the uber close-up: I wanted to be sure you could see the jaw. Also, be sure to TURN DOWN your speakers when the mouthpiece goes in my mouth. This is a webcam mic here, and it clipped all to hell.
 
#77 ·
Guys; again at the risk of beating a dead horse.
you guys are going in the wrong direction with all the tongue position stuff.
AND the most important point is, when you go in this wrong direction you are basically faking doing the exercise.
faking doing the exercise will get you absolutely no where.
just a few quote fom previous posts:
As far as I understand it, if the vocal chords are vibrating, you're singing. We're splitting hairs a bit here, and I'm not sure we can isolate control of one muscle group from another here. The shape of the throat is also so involved in making sounds it's almost a pedantic distinction to say which exact part of the sound-producing system is at work here. Practically speaking, it's probably more useful to speak of the vocal system as a whole in any case.
The vocal cords oscillate because we make them vibrate with air. When blowing a sax, none of that is happening unless you're growling. So, I don't really see how the vocal cords would influence how the reed vibrates?
these above quotes are the equivalent of saying that this entire playing method is not valid.
then the question becomes, if these exercises are in fact not valid then why oh why are you guys messing with them in the first place ?
push the pedal down on a piano and sing into it. hear the sound ? external vibrations make the strings vibrate.
so if you could start with the asumption that the saxophone department at juiliard was in fact teaching a valid concept and that everyone there and all of us that play this way are not in fact deluded or confused about how and what we are doing that would be a big help.
I know these ideas are quite strange to most people but they are tried and as valid as a saxophone method can get.
this isn't some crap i just made up yesterday.
all this talk about tongue position and jaw position and throat position is not a part of this system of playing at all.
from the School of Physics, University of New South Wales, Sydney, NSW 2052, Australia.

Saxophones and the vocal tract: the acoustics of saxophone players
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/SaxTract.html

and this more important study from McGill University
Vocal-Tract Influence during Saxophone Performance
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/vti/
a quote from the study from McGill University study says:
players can create an upstream windway resonance that is strong enough to override the downstream system in controlling reed vibrations
OK so that is scientific proof that this system of playing is valid. so you guys can stop saying its not valid and either try it or not try it.
saying the saxophone department at Julliard was teaching something invalid is a very odd thing to do and super not helpfull.
 
#78 ·
these above quotes are the equivalent of saying that this entire playing method is not valid.
No, it's really not. Questioning an explanation of why something works isn't the same as questioning that it works. This entire method is not only valid, but very good indeed. All I was saying is that I'm not sure how much of what muscles you're really using here, and I am not convinced the reason for the obvious success of this method is because of vocal chord resonance rather than the acoustic impedance of the entire cavity (which, incidentaly, is all the UNSW study you cited mesures). I'm sorry that lead into a discussion about an aspect of playing you think has nothing to do with it. I don't think it's a clearcut as all that.
 
#80 ·
As far as I'm concerned I'm not saying the approach is not valid and I didn't interpret the questions that the subject raised as an attempt to put the method down. In fact I think it's the total opposite of that : it shows an interest for a way of doing things that's not the easiest to explain or understand.
 
#82 ·
Regarding throat tuning, here is a video by flautist Robert Dick in which he describes the idea of the vocal cords being in the same position when playing the note as they would be when singing the note.

Any thoughts as applied to saxophone? For me it's not a note for note match, but more of a general thing, especially in the altissimo.

part one


part two


part three


[EDIT] It would be interesting to know if when playing a note on the flute, and keeping the lips, mouth and tongue steady, only silently voicing a different note or notes whether the pitch on the flute would change. [END EDIT]
 
#83 · (Edited by Moderator)
this method is about bringing your vocal chords on board when playing the saxophone and nothing else.
people who claim that this method is realy about something else are simple wrong and don't know what they are talking about at all.
most likely don't have any real training in this style of playing and are basically just making it up as they go along.
most likely have ego problems.

the mechanism for bringing your vocal chords on board when playing the saxophone is your inner imagination of tone and pitch.

you guys have somehow gotten lost in the end results of playing on the mouthpiece.
you say "i can't do it" like that matters.
all you can do is try at first and get no valid results at all and then move on.
let go for now of the end result. just accept the fact that its doable but you can't do it at all right now.
move on to the next exercise and you won't be able to do that at all either.
give it a try for 10 mintes and move on.
do it a little every day without making cheats like those being talked about here.
over time you will discover that you will begin be able to do it a little.
you will begin to get a feel for it.
I personaly have been doing these exercises for 30 years and i don't do them that great.
eventually slowly over time you will notice the tone on the horn really starting to open up in a way you have never heard before.
the key is to develope your musical imagination. you ask "how" this is the only "how"
if you follow the instructions of people who don't know what they ae talking about and are just making up ways to fake or falsify the exercises then you are wasting your time and should not bother.

to test anything as you go:
the bottom line is... if it causes tension in you voice when singing or talking then its wrong.
if it gives you a relaxed beautiful tone to your voice when you do it its right.
 
#86 ·
Gary is right. Right on the money.

Its NOT about the tongue. You're adding another factor in play with the tongue.

If you're changing your tongue position to do these exercise you are DEFEATING the purpose of the exercise.

Its about doing the exercise with the most relaxation & being aware of whats going on with your body, not about if you hit all the harmonics, bend the pitch the most, etc...your working for the right FEELING & mechanics in your throat, its a PROCESS EXERCISE, NOT ABOUT RESULTS. The result is a better sound & tonal control, which will come in time, if you are being honest with yourself & doing them right.

For anyone who has the book "Findings" by Steve Lacy, you'll notice, on the accompanying CD, on the tracks where Steve is demonstrating harmonics, he misses notes. Misses a few notes. In the book he says something to the effect, its not about hitting all the harmonics, its about going thru the process, the fact that he misses the notes just shows where he was that day, in the studio, physically. The next day, it could be easier...or harder. It doesn't matter. Its the process.
THATS what this is about. (btw Lacy was an Allard student)

Please guys, just give it a try. I don't know what it is about this place, (sotw) or perhaps the Internet, but you don't need to "shoot down" everything that might be something new to you.

Like I said, THIS STUFF WORKS.
IT WORKS. Its worked for MANY, MANY, MANY players throughout recent history, many of your favorites & those you've never heard of....

Give it a chance & let it work for you. You may be pleasantly surprised. It might be the best thing you could do for your playing!
 
#89 ·
another aspect about how the thing about alway looking for "the thing to do" with your tongue or whatever is so false is this:

operation of you vocal chords takes place on a level that is totaly pre-conscious.
you will never find the tricky little thing to do with this or that, with your tongue or whatever that has anything to do with your vocal chords.
it is simply not possible to manipulate your vocal chords in this way by consciuosly thing this or that think "i'm doing".

try thinking "i'm going to manipulate my vocal chords in such a way as to make my voice sound sad" then try to write down "how you did it"
thats why all of this discussion is such BS.
the only way to access the vocal mechanism is with you imagination of sound and emotion.
thats it -- you cant manipulate your vocal chords in any other way, its just imposible.
I know this is way over your heads but this is the system me and Black Obelisk are talking about and this is the Allard method.

when you start trying to manipulate pitch in any other way you are simply off on a pointles tangent that leads nowhere.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top