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I fear I've really messed up. Embouchure and other stuff...

5K views 10 replies 10 participants last post by  AudiGraph 
#1 ·
Hi everyone :)
This is my first post, and it might end up quite lengthy...but here it goes. If you don't feel like reading it all, just read the last big paragraph I guess.

In junior high, I started on flute. Great instrument, but thought about switching in 8th grade, ended up sticking with it though. I borrowed one of my friends saxophones for a week and bought my own mouthpiece, lig and reeds(though the lady sold me a clarinet lig, something that I was oblivious to until I looked at the receipt 4 years later :|) and I practiced, managed to get a sound, and gave it back to him the next week. My mind was set, I'm gonna switch in high school to saxophone.

So there I was, a few days before high school started, no saxophone or experience other than that one week of practice. My parents finally take me to the music shop and get me a nice silver saxophone to my surprise(a Jupiter SG869) The most beautiful saxophone out of my section(though still only an intermediate horn, I know). It made me unique, but unfortunately, I couldn't deliver with it. I had the fingerings down pretty perfectly except for the high notes since the notes are much like that of a flute. I also had great breath support since flute demands so much of it. Anyways, I practiced like there was no tomorrow, those last few days of summer vacation.

When high school started, to my surprise, all we practiced was marching band music of course. Loud, loud, loud, march march march, blow blow blow. This was the basis of my embouchure. Back in junior high, if you wanted to start out on saxophone, you had to either start on clarinet first, or take private saxophone lessons. Since I did neither and never learned the fundamentals, I had to teach myself everything(most likely the wrong way I might add), most of my notes were shaky that whole year until I got accustomed to everything. I wasn't horrible though, I wasn't like some of those people you might remember from band who could barely play their instruments, and you would think to yourself "How can anyone allow themselves to be embarrassed like that?". My tone needed work, but everything else was okay. I got into wind ensemble my sophomore year. Played Scaramouche by Milhaud my junior year for Solo & Ensemble and got a superior, you get the idea.

Here I am a senior, 2nd chair wind ensemble, my tone is quite good(I think), and I've never been more interested in my playing. I finally had the idea of going out and buying a new mouthpiece(a C*, which I'm still getting accustomed to as it kills my embouchure after a while), a new ligature(Rovner dark), and looking into a new saxophone(I feel my current sax is hindering my ability since it's seen 4 marching band seasons and isn't in the best shape) Most importantly, I've been looking into technique and such, all the little things many high school students never think about. I bought "The Art of Saxophone Playing" by Larry Teal. After reading the embouchure chapter, I realized half of the things I've been doing were wrong.

I was using my bottom teeth to push up against my bottom lip to make the reed vibrate, when the only thing that should be pushing up against the reed is the bottom lip using the muscles. Well, I guess that would solve my dead bottom lip which hindered my tone after a while(I never had any problem playing on my old mouthpiece that came with the Jupiter). So I was pretty happy. I thought I sounded a little better, and that it opened up more room for me to improve. Until I went in my bathroom to look in the mirror as I played. I noticed something I've never noticed with other saxophonists. When I blew, under the mouthpiece, under my bottom lip, the skin was bunching up a little. Imagine a fat person trying to do pull ups, and all that fat is under the bar(no offense to anyone obese, I'm just trying to help people picture it) I was like "***?!" I never noticed it before. So now, I'm trying to fix this, by curling my bottom lip in more. Is this how it should be? I'm really confused, and I'm afraid much of what I've learned is wrong. I have 3 and a half years worth of callus built up in the wrong spot *sigh*. Perhaps this is what has been stopping me from getting the dark tone I've been trying to get? I don't really know. I'm going to try and get a few sessions with a private teacher if I can get the money eventually.

I'd prefer not to make any drastic changes that will throw me back to a beginners tone since I'm going to be playing Fantasia by Claude T. Smith for this year's Solo & Ensemble, and also a sax quartet(Unless I'd be able to work my embouchure back to where it is now in terms of tone in a speedy manner)

Anyways, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sorry about the long post, but I guess it could be considered as my introduction post as well as my musical life story thus far :D
 
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#2 ·
Your chin should lookt like it does when you are whistling. It is going to time some time to re- work your muscles, but try practicing in front of a mirror everyday for small increments and ONLY with the correct embouchure. Pay attention to how everything feels. Slowly work yourself away from the mirror until you are able to produce the correct chin on your own. Hope this helps!
 
#3 ·
Save your money on a new horn and mpc and other stuff. Get your present horn overhauled, stick with a C* but . . . use the money you saved by not buying new equipment for a good teacher!
 
#6 ·
I was using my bottom teeth to push up against my bottom lip to make the reed vibrate, when the only thing that should be pushing up against the reed is the bottom lip using the muscles. Well, I guess that would solve my dead bottom lip which hindered my tone after a while(I never had any problem playing on my old mouthpiece that came with the Jupiter).
This is one school of thought on this and there are many players who ascribe to this. I tend to support using my bottom teeth underneath my lip. I then anchor the mouthpiece with my top-teeth and create the "seal" by bringing in my corners. I feel that this gives me better control overall than the Teal method.

You'll find this varies a lot from teacher to teacher, and many people have very individual embouchures. Find a good teacher who will help to guide you in discovering what will help you develop the best sound physiologically.

I gotta agree with everyone else, save your money for a good teacher! I used a yamaha 52 until my second year of college!
 
#7 ·
I wholeheartedly agree that a good teacher is a necessity.

As for your embochure, it's important to know the difference between firm and tight. Your lower lip must be firm over the bottom teeth, meaning the tautness of the lower lip over the teeth must be greater, however the common misconception is to tighten the jaw around the mouthpiece and reed, otherwise called "biting," and anyone with common sense knows that biting only chokes the reed's ability to vibrate freely, creating a thin sound lacking in substance that makes the high register sound very shrill and the rest of the instrument very thin and weak. To prevent biting, be sure to also pull down your chin, which will keep your lower lip firm and keep it from bunching up around the reed. Think of the lower lip as a pad that the reed simply rests on, and you don't want it to bunch up and restrict the reed's vibrations. And just be sure to have the correct amount of mouthpiece in your mouth. Find the "break point" (where the reed and mouthpiece separate from each other) and that is where your lower lip should be when you play. Do not change this position or that of your upper teeth no matter what register you play in. Finally, always keep an open throat to create the fullest and richest sound you can.
 
#8 ·
The one thing I have to add to finding a teacher is that you should aim to find a studio teacher at a university or college! Their knowledge of proper embouchure and playing will be at the level you're looking for, whereas some other local sax teachers might not have an approach that ill be as immediately helpful.

This advice is from my perspective as a new university student, as my fellow saxophonists and I have realized that much of our playing before (at whatever level, conservatory or high-school trained) was wrong. Embouchure is definitely one of the biggest points to fix, and if it makes you feel any better, you'll probably be working on it for a long time, so don't worry about instant changes! It'll will take at least a few weeks of focused effort to start to notice the changes you're looking for.
It sounds like you're playing lots of great rep though, don't forget to have fun ;)
 
#9 ·
I was using my bottom teeth to push up against my bottom lip to make the reed vibrate, when the only thing that should be pushing up against the reed is the bottom lip using the muscles. Well, I guess that would solve my dead bottom lip which hindered my tone after a while(I never had any problem playing on my old mouthpiece that came with the Jupiter).
This is one school of thought on this and there are many players who ascribe to this. I tend to support using my bottom teeth underneath my lip. I then anchor the mouthpiece with my top-teeth and create the "seal" by bringing in my corners. I feel that this gives me better control overall than the Teal method.

You'll find this varies a lot from teacher to teacher, and many people have very individual embouchures. Find a good teacher who will help to guide you in discovering what will help you develop the best sound physiologically.

I gotta agree with everyone else, save your money for a good teacher! I used a yamaha 52 until my second year of college!
I agree with all of this. The Teal method isn't the only one...Joe Allard's description of how to form an embrouchure was much different, as was Mule's, Rascher's, etc. You need a teacher, and I'd recommend that you talk to some college-level teachers near you. If you're in Florida, there should be several no matter where you are in the state.
 
#10 ·
Thanks all of you! I really appreciate all of the tips.
Since money isn't really in my favor anyways, I decided to take apart my sax this morning and do a deep cleaning(Geeze it needed one. It shines again!). Hopefully there will be a noticeable difference in how it plays after I put it back together.
I'll definitely look into getting a good university teacher. That'll be my #1 priority right now.
 
#11 ·
Find a teacher for some quick fixes, but there's nothing wrong with playing with an "weird looking" embouchure if the resultant sound is good. Determining quality of your sound is the difficult part. I focused a lot of my time learning embouchure to produce a good sound, and even made audi-graph to teach it by displaying the entirety of my sound against a professional's recording. It's drastically improved my tone and sound quality... but I still can't explain my embouchure in words. It's like describing how to chew food... everyone does it a little different.
 
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