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Fighting Jazz Concepts

6K views 28 replies 18 participants last post by  Slab Hardcheese 
#1 ·
I am a senior all-state tenor sax player that plans on majoring in Music Education.

Well, this year I auditoned for the district band on alto and tenor, jazz and concert band. I made chairs on all four:
Alto:
Concert: 3rd
Jazz: 2nd alt.
Tenor:
Concert: 1st
Jazz: 1st alt.

I looked at my judge sheets afterwards and the judge's biggest remark on my alto sheet was my JAZZY TONE. I've been fighting my edgy sound forever on my Yamaha 82Z even with my Rousseau NC5 and Vandoren Traditional 3s with BG trad. GP lig. I've tried harder reeds. . . just a stuffier sound. I've tried my Rovner Dark lig. . . too resistant/only slightly darkens the sound. I've tried the S-80 C*. . . a little richer, but no less bright.

So, now I'm thinking of trying a Caravan or Rascher piece. Does anybody have experiences with these darker pieces on a brighter sax like the 82Z? Any advice on getting that classical tone?

I know that a lot of the problem is the way I approach classical music, but huge part of that is that when I hear my sound, I automatically think jazz. It's like this: my sound fits so well into the jazz genre that I play with the jazz style too.

I don't have this problem with tenor because I don't think I have a very good jazz sound on it, so it's harder to get genre confused. My tenor sounds like a mix of euphonium/trombone and bass clarinet. (YTS-23, S-80 C*, Rovner Dark, Vandoren trad. 3s)
 
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#2 ·
Of course, I use a lot of vibrato, and that could be representative of my love for jazz. "Would you like some tone with that vibrato?"

I have problems tonguing correctly. And, of course, I'm going to take the easy way out and say that my band director was a vocal major and never took the time to focus on how we articulate. So now I have a nearly impossible to stop movement from my tongue on my lower jaw. I've had lessons for 3-4 years and my teachers have never really told me anything except practice in front of a mirror.
 
#9 ·
So now I have a nearly impossible to stop movement from my tongue on my lower jaw. I've had lessons for 3-4 years and my teachers have never really told me anything except practice in front of a mirror.
That right there is a large part of the problem.

Work on long tones with NO vibrato. Learn to sustain a long, pure, steady sound. Don't scoop the attack. Just straight, steady sound with good air support and a solid, consistent embouchure.

This may be extremely humbling for a while, because if you haven't worked on this much before, you'll be absolutely shocked by how much the vibrato can mask (and how bad you may initially sound!).

Don't give up, though! Learning to control your air and embouchure pays HUGE dividends.

(and don't even think about switching gear until you have this nailed down.)
 
#3 ·
I sat next to a guy in a wind ensemble who was playing a Z alto and Selmer Soloist mpc. There were four altos in the section, each part doubled. It just happened that the other three of us were playing Selmer IIs. The Z player had a really hard time controlling that beast. How much of it was just more maturity on the part of we other three I can't say; certainly it was a factor but I just got the impression that his horn didn't help.

I heard a recording of someone playing a Z alto with a conventional French legit sound and it was fine. To what extent he had to go to get there, I can't say. But certainly the overriding factor is you having a very clear image in your ear of what a good classical sound is, listening often to such players, and doing all of the long-tone and sound development exercises that you have to do with the goal of that classical sound in mind.
 
#4 ·
I would definitely try a larger chamber piece like the Rascher or Caravan. Those classical pieces are inherently brighter because of the smaller chamber. Even a small hard rubber link might do it. Maybe a 5 or 5*. If you have the bread check out a Morgan classical piece. They are sweet.
 
#5 ·
I wouldn't immediately jump to a Rascher or Caravan for a couple of reasons:

1. It's a very different mouthpiece, and you could RUIN your sound entirely by using a large chamber mouthpiece if you aren't careful. You need a teacher that is familiar with them (and can help you) because they are a very different beast. The amount of resistance is very different and you need to relearn a lot of things with those. You would be better served by getting a mouthpiece with a smaller tip opening (the NC5 is slightly too open for me...) and a harder reed OR a tweener mouthpiece like a Morgan. Brightness in a sound is OK, edge is not.

2. Your sound is good, and judges for things like this are usually stupid. "Jazzy tone"? That's a pretty vague description, but it sounds more like it's a tonal conception issue with your attack rather than an equipment issue. Again, don't confuse brightness with edge. I'll say it until I am blue in the face: Rousseau and Delangle have bright sounds, but no edge. Listen to Branford's concerto CD for an example of a different tonal conception...he's using an S-80 C* on this album but he still sounds like he's using a Guardala.

3. If you are going to be a music major in college, you'll probably end up changing equipment again anyway pretty soon. In the months that it will take you to get used to a new mouthpiece, you could be learning audition music and you'll be wasting time.

Just a few points to consider. Changing mouthpieces should be a last resort for a young player, and not something to be taken lightly.
 
#21 ·
Regarding the OP, I think a Caravan is a good "first-step" mouthpiece for large-chamber setups. Hey, I'm even considering putting mine back on the horn since I'm not happy with my sound on my Buescher MP lately. It's a very mellow, flexible mouthpiece with easy response in the high range. However, like JMax said earlier, if you're about to enter college you might want to wait on a major equipment change.

There are a couple of posts about people not being happy on their Rousseau pieces. This is surprising to me, since I've always liked the way people sound on them (especially compared to Vandorens). If I were you, I'd stick with the Rousseau and work on your basics - embouchure, long tones, tonal imagination, etc. Find a teacher that can help you with these things ASAP!!

I wouldn't immediately jump to a Rascher or Caravan for a couple of reasons:

1. It's a very different mouthpiece, and you could RUIN your sound entirely by using a large chamber mouthpiece if you aren't careful.
(Call in the firing squad for Dave)... How so?? BTW, everything else you wrote was cool.
 
#11 ·
Agreed, and an articulation/concept/vibrato problem too ;)

Switching equipment should always be a last resort, especially for a younger (high school or lower) student. As much fun as it is to talk about mouthpieces and ligatures, it isn't going to help if you don't already have a sound in your head.
 
#8 ·
I totally agree with Jordan on this one.

It seems when anyone has any trouble with sound, intonation, or anything else non-fingers, everyone immediately starts talking set ups and equipment they might need to get.

Sure, the right equipment helps, but it doesn't MAKE you sounds like anything. YOU make IT sound like something. I feel like everyone here knows this already; some may be in some sort of "mini denial". Thinking that you NEED to change setups only worsens this.
 
#10 ·
I agree with what Angel seems to be implying (please correct me if I am wrong, Angel) : if you mostly listen to jazz -- and therefore think/feel in the language of jazz -- then that is the sound that you will produce .

In order to produce a classical tone, this tone must be living in your mind/ear/imagination BEFORE you pick up the instrument. Otherwise you are shooting in the dark at an unknown target.

If this sound doesn't exist in your mind yet, then do some serious listening, with headphones, to some great classical players and notice the specific traits of the tones you naturally gravitate towards.

I know you're a tenor player, but here's the great Daniel Deffayet, bringing new meaning to the word "cool"



And here's a fine tenor playor (playing a Yamaha, I should add)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+swan+saxophone&search_type=&aq=0&oq=the+swan+saxo

In order to understand and begin to internalize the classical aesthetic, listen carefully to great classical instrumentalists: winds, strings -- and especially cellists!

Good luck!
 
#12 ·
What IS a 'jazzy tone'? 'Jazzy' is a word that can be placed on some pretty goofy things. What is a 'classical tone'? These two ideas seem pretty unreal to me.

The mechanics of how to play the horn should take care of both situations. I would suggest finding a teacher who can explain how to physically play the horn over the entire range with a moderate set up. How to play the horn is more relevant to you than what to play on the horn. You can colour things to suit your needs.

Check out the Joseph Allard site. You can find it with google. It might give you a better idea of how you can straddle the different genres of music.

My two cents. Flame away.
 
#13 ·
You're obviously doing very well.

I've begun to learn that it doesn't really seem to matter which mp I use, I still sound virtually the same! I've also learnt some long and hard lessons about accepting myself the way I am.

When I first started painting, I wanted to paint with a much more classical style. And when I began singing seriously, I wanted to have a certain voice type (Celine Dion, would've been v nice)

The fact of the matter is that I always paint, just the way I paint, my own style comes out whatever I seem to do. I also, always sing, just the way I sing. Even though I try, it always comes out Peggy Lee-ish.

If I've learnt anything over the years, it's to hone what I have, rather than what I would like to have. Once I started travelling that route, everything hugely improved for me. I hope my answer isn't too off-track for you :TGNCHK: It also is probably not very helpful when you are trying to find a more classical tone. But maybe, you're just trying to squeeze yourself into something that just don't fit!
 
#14 ·
Jazz does dominate my listening. I am striving for something different from my voice.

I guess I will start an extreme diet of classical music. I like Branford, Nobuya Sugawa, and Jean Formeau.
 
#18 ·
Jazz does dominate my listening. I am striving for something different from my voice.

I guess I will start an extreme diet of classical music. I like Branford, Nobuya Sugawa, and Jean Formeau.
I'd highly recommend you avoid Branford. Check out Harry White.

Also, listen to non-saxophonists as much as possible. You'll find that the majority of saxophone CDs on the current market pale in quality when compared to thos by string players, and other woodwinds.

I highly recommend listening to string concertos.
 
#15 ·
I think our listening has more of an influence over how we sound than really anything else. It is half of the practice and most of that which fuels our imagination. Our technique (voicing, embouchure, air control, etc) only facilitates the execution of our imagination. The more refined the technique becomes, the more vividly and accurately we can communicate our intentions to the audience. But it starts with the listening, first and foremost.

Try to be as objective and all-encompassing as you can while discerning the quality of listening items. It's weird to think this way about such a thoroughly subjective area, but I think that at least the honest intention towards that end is key. You need to listen to things that you like, so that you don't go insane. But back off on that a bit, and seek out "nutritious" options as the bulk of the daily critical listening experience. Items that, as a mature person, you know will help your artistic growth in a variety of specific directions.

I am by no means downplaying equipment choice. I believe that ease of response in all registers is key. Whatever setup yields that result (apropos of your physiology or previous habit) would be an appropriate point of departure.

All IMO.
 
#16 ·
I should probably stop listening to Bulgarian Women's Choirs, and Anonymous 4.:shock:

But, I will NOT give up Ute Lemper singing Kurt Weill...
 
#23 ·
I'm getting a really noticeable airy tone on alto. I've tried changing reed strength, brand, style, ligature, ligature position. So I have come to a conclusion that it is either the free-blowing nature of my 82Z or the openness of my mouthpiece (Rousseau NC5).

So, do you think I should try the NC4 instead? How about a different neck for intonation and a little more resistance (Custom G3GP)?

Before I go into all of this read this:

I don't get it. Last night I came home from All-District Band performance, during which I was fighting my tenor for every note. I arrive home and played the alto sax from 9 to 10:30pm. I'm not kidding here: I had the best tone and technique while playing for that hour and a half than I ever have. I was making full octave slurs without a problem (cleanly, musically, beautifully, you name it).My tonguing was clean, light, defined, more controlled (playing sixteenth note passages with ease and fluidity). My fingerings were precise, fluid, very mechanical. Lows popped out with the ease of cutting butter with a white-hot knife. The highs were just as simple with fullness, clarity, beautiful tonal color.
My tone was easily controllable, from being able to produce a mellower sound ideal for classical music or a jazz sound that made my "Baker Street" solo sound simply terrific. Vibrato was even and just as easy to manipulate.
If I could play like that everyday, I have no doubt that I'd be in the all-state band for alto, maybe even first chair.
Then, I woke up today, went to work, and came back home. I got the alto sax out again to find out that I no longer liked my tone. My tonguing sounded forced and harder to control. The lows and highs no longer spoke with the ease that they did the previous night. My vibrato was less even and harder to manipulate. ETC, ETC.
There are a few things that I believe could have caused this. Maybe my stuffed-up sinuses affected my perception between the two. It could have been the fact that I got used to fighting my tenor. I may have benefited from playing all day with the all-district band. My saxophone may have reacted different from the way I set the horn up or the conditions aside from the horn. I may have already forgotten what I was doing to produce the sound I was getting.
I thought I made sure to remember: relaxed embouchure/ open, relaxed throat position/ don't know how to explain tongue technique. Am I missing something?
 
#24 ·
I thought I made sure to remember: relaxed embouchure/ open, relaxed throat position/ don't know how to explain tongue technique. Am I missing something?
This is where a good teacher would come in handy. The "airy" sound may not be a huge deal depending on why it's happening.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is tone. It can take YEARS to perfect a classical saxophone sound; the fact that you got close once is perhaps a good start, but it isn't an end.
(BTW, reed selection is important too...)
 
#26 ·
(BTW, reed selection is important too...)
Considering that the reed is the actual source of the saxophone's sound, this is completely true. Instead of trying to change the strength of the reed, try to change the "model." I always buy Vandoren, and I've found that the Vandoren V-12 reeds give (at least for me) a much darker sound as opposed to the origional Vandoren classic.
I've found that the following setup works on many different horns and for many different people:
Vandoren AL-3 mpc
Vandoren Classic or V-12 reeds
Bay classic ligature
I've seen it used on many different models of horn, but I don't know how it sounds on a z. The chamber of the AL-3 isn't huge, but it is still quite dark and reflects your training, my colleagues are often much darker on it than I am:(, but it is still much better for me than any other mpc.
I've recently started spending more time around college professors and their own students. If you are not part of your college's sax studio right away (some are more competitive than others), go to some of the recitals. If you are in the studio, practice with upperclassmen whenever you can, they all have great advice.
Best wishes,
John
 
#25 ·
I have always played lots of jazz and classical music. And, it can sometimes be very difficult to separate the two. When playing jazz you want the audience to think that you never play classical music; the same goes in reverse when playing classical music. But, that is easier said than done. I still have difficulties with this. For a long time I played classical music on alto only and jazz on tenor only. This helped me separate the two.

I agree with many of the posts on this tread; don't switch equipment. It seems that you are doing really well. So, keep practicing and and expand your listening. It would also be a great idea to find a good teacher in your area.

Chris
 
#27 ·
My two cents...don't expect to play one mouthpiece in the middle of dark/bright like a Rousseau NC5 and expect it to work for both classical AND jazz. I'm not saying you need to find a super bright mouthpiece for jazz like a dukoff & a vintage buescher piece for a dark sound, but...they'd be worth experimenting with to give you an idea of your tonal conception for both jazz and classical. I'm a big believer in having a completely different setup for classical & jazz - not sure how much jazz alto playing you do though.

All that being said, I would highly recommend the Caravan. The Rascher pieces in my experience are great on vintage horns...but don't mix well with modern. The Caravan's will do well w/ Vandoren Traditional 3.5 reeds - if you can, try & pick up a Caravan medium AND large chamber to compare. Good luck!
 
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