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How To Identify A Couturier Stencil

9K views 16 replies 7 participants last post by  paulwl 
#1 ·
I'd like to come back to that question in an own thread.

What do I mean with 'Couturier Stencil'?

That are saxophones made by Couturier (1922-1923) and those made by the Couturier factory under the leadership of Lyon&Healy/ made by Lyon&Healy 1924-1928, however sold by a different company.

Some were trademarks or brands sold by Lyon&Healy. I will include them here.



Of course the photo shows the original 'Couturier' engraving.
 
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#2 ·
Felix,
Somewhat related to this--we're early Holton Revelations (such as my tenor) made by Courturier, and therefore a kind of stencil, even though Holton owned Couturier by then? (Remeber too that my early Rev II shares many features with the earliest Collegiates.)
 
#3 ·
Thank you, geauxsax, for preventing 'Couturier' from being moved to the area of the unknown mixed.:)

Stencil or not - that is at first a question of definition. Usually used for a saxophone which is built by one company and sold by a 'stencilling' company which put his own name on it instead. In case of Couturier/Lyon&Healy/Holton that term turns out to be completely senseless what we will see on various examples. I usually prefer descriptions on the individual relationship of two companies e.g. what was said about Gretsch and Couturier.

The COLLEGIATE I is a real Couturier saxophone. No stencil as being made by Holton, the owner of the Couturier machinery since spring 1928.

If COLLEGIATE II and REVELATION II were descendants of the Couturier line was a question I got my teeth into for a while. I've examined that by buying a (nice sounding) Collegiate II alto. The result: No, the body is not Couturier related although there are some similiarities in the keywork.

But yes, Collegiate II is new designed by Holton using a different bore. And - as found out with the help of jazzbug - your Revelation II is significantly different from Revelation I. Do you think the body of your Revelation II is essentially a Couturier?

As I don't own a Couturier tenor we currently can't substanciate that.

Is there any Couturier related 'Revelation' ?

Yes, surprisingly I've found one by chance:D. I'ts hiding here (currently needing a rebuilt):

"Re: COLLEGIATE made by Frank Holton; The early years: 1928-1938
COLLEGIATE I

List of Contents ...

8. 'Revelation' instead of 'Collegiate' - Holton's surprising idea

9. 'American Beaufort' - Sale Or The End Of A Great Idea"

Let me come back to that 'CoutuRevelation'.

Felix
 
#4 ·
I forgot to give the answer how to identify a Couturier based Holton saxophone wether it may be a 'COLLEGIATE' or a 'REVELATION'. I think that's what most people looking at this thread may be interested in (not the question if 'stencil' is the correct term here).

It's as simple as it could be: A Holton saxophone with thick bevelled toneholes soldered onto the body is a Couturier(body)/Lyon&Healy(keywork) based saxophone.





Vice versa: Holton saxophones other than that are - as far as we know until now - not Couturier based.
 
#6 ·
 
#7 ·
Your descriptions of the Couturier/L&H alto sax reminded me of my grandfather's old horn that he played in a Big Band in the 30's-40's.
Grandpa wasn't rich so never assumed it had more than sentimental value.

The bell is stamped "Lyon & Healy Makers" "Chicago U.S.A"
Serial # : 17366 with A above and L below.

I dug it out of the garage and took some pictures. What do you think?

By the way: what is the little brass adapter for?
 
#13 ·
Phillip, have you played it, or is it playable? Looks a bit rough. That's a SERIOUS neck plug. I'll have to make one like it for mine, which has none. Any chance you could post another close-up pic or two of just the neck plug? Dimensions would be great, too, if you have calipers, but if not, just clearer pics would be great. Thanks.
 
#17 ·
The Martin chimney has that chamfer or bevel where it contacts the pad.

The Couturier chimney (sometimes called Gronert after its designer) is soldered on like Martin chimneys, but has a plain edge with no bevel.

York C soprano by Couturier, silver plate, #88xxx. (Brass horn is a Conn for comparison.)
click to enlarge
Hand Wood Gas Security Lock

Plant Wood Tree Terrestrial plant Trunk
 
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