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Too bright to be classical?

14K views 46 replies 22 participants last post by  AudiGraph 
#1 ·
I've been playing sax for 3 years and I have just been recognizing that my sound is too bright. I have even just upped my reed to a 3 1/2 vandoren traditional (good hard reed) but I still get brightness. This might be good if I'm going to the jazz section (which eventually I want to) but I also mainly only want to be a classical dark tone player. Is there anyway to get my tone to be darker and rounder like somehow with my embachure or something? ( I have tried the s80 mouthpiece, but I think I might've gotten it in a smaller facing than I could've, since I got a C* but STILL got a bright sound)

Btw, just to compare with my friend

What is a better tone(which I know is subjective, but in a general case) and please say why

A very very clear tone with a medium bright to bright sound

A sort of muffled tone with a nice warm sound

Thank you so much
 
#2 ·
I am going through the same thing right now man. I've been playing for 11-2 years and am majoring in music education and performance in college. My classical AND jazz sound is WAY too bright. I am also using a Selmer C* for classical and a Jody Jazz HR* 8 for jazz along with Alexander reeds. I have found Alexander Classique reeds darkened the C* to an extent and it is much more defined sound wise, but still bright. So if a few weeks I am going to try out a Morgan 3C after some advice given to me on this fourm. Use the search function to check it out. There are also Caravan pieces you might want to look at, as well as Raschers but I'll let you read about that on here on your own.

Another thing is which horn do you play. I have a Cannonball "Raven" Big Bell Tenor that is naturally so freaking bright it is crazy. So that might have some effect as well.

As for which sound is better, I wouldn't even go there. You are correct, it is very subjective and there have been debates for this for years. Personally, I like a warm, defined but not clear dark tone with almost no edge. My advice is to listen to everyone you can get a hold of such as (in no particular order):

Eugene Rousseau
Sigurd Rascher
Claude Delangle
Lawrence Gwozdz
John-Edward Kelly
Marcel Mule
Harry White
Andreas Van Zoelen
Donald Sinta
Elliot Riley
Nobuya Sugawa
Timothy McAllister
Joseph Wytko
etc...

Then find your own voice and go from there :D
 
#5 ·
Changing saxophones will only make a small bit of difference as 90% of your sound is controlled from the neck of the saxophone to the mouthpiece. Since getting a new neck is probably out of the question, look at mouthpieces that are going to give you a darker sound. The caravan's were mentioned and I would second this. I can still get a bright sound on these if I want, but in my opinion they are the ultimate classical piece.
 
#6 ·
S80 C* is a bright mouthpiece, IMO. Classical, yes, but relatively bright. BTW, there are very good bright classical sounds. But that's a different thread altogether. If you want dark, try a different mpc.

There are definitely embouchure approaches to get a darker sound as well. Looser embouchure, open throat. Keep the tongue lower in the mouth (if you're using an arched tongue that pushes the air high and fast to the top of your mouth, it'll sound brighter). Experiment with taking a little less mouthpiece. Blow slower, warmer air (experiment, and you'll see what I mean). Work on long tones, and really concentrate on mouth and throat, and see if you can darken the sound.

As to which is better -- bright and clear or dark -- there is no right answer. If you like your sound, great. If not, work to change it.

Good luck.
 
#10 ·
S80 C* is a bright mouthpiece, IMO. Classical, yes, but relatively bright. BTW, there are very good bright classical sounds. But that's a different thread altogether. If you want dark, try a different mpc.
I found I like a Conn Steelay, though I had to open it up to play it. However, mine had a 3 tip opening and is now about a 5*. If you started with something larger like this, you wouldn't have to modify it.
 
#7 ·
You've already gotten some good advice here.

My recommendation would also be changing mouthpieces if you want to go darker.

The easiest thing to get hold of would probably be a Vandoren Optimum (AL3 or AL4). This may or may not be sufficiently darker to meet your expectations, but I do find them considerably darker and warmer sounding than the S80, without losing the strong core focus. Available almost everywhere.

Caravan medium chamber is my best guess as to what you are looking for. Available at weinermusic.com. The large chamber version is even darker, but you may find it a bit too big of an increase in resistance from where you are now (i.e. it might feel like someone stuffed a pillow down your bell at first). The Caravan mouthpieces are great values.

Others to try would be the Rascher, Houlik and Morgan 'C' models, any of which would be darker than the S80.

Good luck!
 
#9 ·
Did the OP specify alto or tenor? Hmmm. I'll assume alto as others evidently also have. (OP - in the future it's helpful to know. There can be a difference in the advice given if it's a tenor and not an alto.) Also, do we know what make/model sax it is? I don't want to get into any bloody arguments, but IMO it can also be a factor. The more info the better. Perhaps I just read past the specifics.

All things being equal, I would start with a Caravan mpc. Nice dark and sweet sound. If you can't get what you're looking for with that mpc and a Vandoren Trad or V12 reed, add a Rovner dark lig. If that doesn't work time to get a new neck.
 
#11 ·
OP mentioned increasing reed strength. Reed strength doesn't darken tone, it will only make your tone stuffier which can be confused with dark. My best advice to you would be to find a good reed of medium strength (medium strength for you), and then keep experimenting with the mouthpieces people have been suggesting (Large chamber Caravans are great pieces to switch to off of a C-Star). Different styles of mouthpiece need different reed strengths, so have a few ready to go. Look for a mouthpiece/reed combo that gives you a lot of flexibility in tone color.

Also, about your tone quality question, nobody should ever sound "muffled," even if working on a darker tone. We need to find the right balance of clarity and darkness.
 
#12 ·
OP mentioned increasing reed strength. Reed strength doesn't darken tone, it will only make your tone stuffier which can be confused with dark. My best advice to you would be to find a good reed of medium strength (medium strength for you), and then keep experimenting with the mouthpieces people have been suggesting (Large chamber Caravans are great pieces to switch to off of a C-Star). Different styles of mouthpiece need different reed strengths, so have a few ready to go. Look for a mouthpiece/reed combo that gives you a lot of flexibility in tone color.

Also, about your tone quality question, nobody should ever sound "muffled," even if working on a darker tone. We need to find the right balance of clarity and darkness.
Agreed. Good Post. Experiment with different reeds and mouthpieces and find a setup that is comfortable for you and work with it. Voicing is always important.

There are many great mouthpieces out there. I have had success with the following:

Caravan (large and medium chamber)
Houlik
Vandoren V5 A27

Other good ones are the Selmer s-80's, s-90's, and Larry Teal mouthpieces, Vandoren Optimum mouthieces, Rascher mouthpieces, and old Beuscher pieces.

Also, if you can get one, the old Selmer Air Flow mouthpieces are really great for classical. But you will probably have to get it refaced.

As for reeds I like Vandorens; blue box and V-12's. both are good. but again, there are many others to try out.

It all depends on what is comfortable for you, and what works best with your horn.

Good luck

Chris
 
#16 ·
Ideally a good classical tone would be very clear and dark. "Fuzziness" or "muffled" sounds generally are a sign of reed imperfections, not so much the mouthpiece. I personally would recommend the Caravan or Rascher mouthpieces. The dimensions of those mouthpieces are best suited for a warm, dark, yet clear and vibrant sound; however many find it difficult to adjust to the amount of resistance that they encounter with them. Their large chamber, concave baffle, large round bore design makes them work well with reeds around a strength 3- no harder- so that the tone is dark, but you do not lose vibrancy or flexibility. Other mouthpieces tend to require harder reeds to get them to sound dark, but then you lose vibrancy because harder reeds won't vibrate as well and you get a "muffled" or "stuffy" sort of tone that comes mostly from reed stiffness. Also, playing in the lower register becomes very difficult and the upper register will sound hard and cold because of reed stiffness.

Also factor in your embochure and breathing habits. Most tone production issues can be solved by checking that breathing and embochure are correct. It is important to breathe from the diaphragm and keep an open throat to keep your sound from becoming thin and weak, especially in the upper register. Be sure when you form your embochure that your lower lip stays firm - when you place the reed on your lower lip there should be no "hugging" of the reed by your lower lip (check this in a mirror). Keep your chin flat and do not bite up and choke the reed. Be sure you have the right amount of mouthpiece in the mouth (up to the "break point"). Done correctly, you should be able to play all notes in the range without changing your embochure. If you find yourself shifting your embochure between the highest and lowest notes, you aren't doing it correctly. Best of luck!
 
#17 ·
I don't think you can say "too bright" or "too dark". Your sound is your sound. Vandoren makes very bright classical pieces and I think they know what they're doing. Try a different mouthpiece and try different things. I find that I sound more like the people I listen to. Also you should be able to alter your sound with embouchure to sound darker or brighter. Darker would probably involve a slower air stream (I would guess)
 
#19 ·
Again, misinformation spewing forth.
There is such a thing as too bright for classical.
You have to be able to BLEND your sound with those playing around you.
Too bright and you stick out like a sore thumb.
Too dark and you have a tendency to sound dull.
In a classical setting there needs to be a bit more 'uniformity' in the sound.
 
#20 ·
. . . and I also question the statement that "ideally a good classical tone would be very clear and dark." Really? I could swear that any number of classical saxophonists do not play with a dark sound.
 
#25 · (Edited)
bandmommy said:
There is such a thing as too bright for classical.
I totally disagree. So might the Paris Conservatoire, as well as many professional orchestras out there. I think that there are some serious approach issues such as quality of attack and sensitivity of phrasing that occur, which are most often mistakenly diagnosed as a tone being too bright.

bandmommy said:
You have to be able to BLEND your sound with those playing around you.
For certain. But you also must be equally able to distinguish yourself from a blend however and whenever appropriate. This does not always mean dynamics; in fact, many times a change of timbre is due.

bandmommy said:
In a classical setting there needs to be a bit more 'uniformity' in the sound.
The performer must be able to execute a significant level of homogeneity of tone throughout his controlled range as part of his comprehensive technique, but very rarely is this actually appropriate from a performance standpoint. This is a problem that many classical players on all instruments experience -- explanations abound, I'm sure. At the end of the afternoon, it's a big reason why classical is a genre that is considered boring.

Really? I could swear that any number of classical saxophonists do not play with a dark sound.
My iTunes library agrees with you.

Of course, all this is just my opinion for whatever it's worth, with all respect. Regarding what I surmise to be the OP's root issue, my suggestion is to select an easy-response setup and begin a serious voicing training. I believe that if half of our practice is daily focused critical listening to our favorite artists exemplifying our own goals, then the other half should be building the flexibility and executing the clean repetitions necessary in order to achieve. For a number of us, it begins at voicing, especially in a discussion on tone.
 
#23 ·
Michael,
You say you play in a WIND ENSEMBLE, and you have no clue that you have to blend your sound?
There's a heck of a lot more going on when you play in a group setting than just making sure you are in 'tune'.
Tone color is just as important.

Are you sure you have a real 'teacher'? This should have all been explained waaaaay back in beginning band.
 
#29 ·
BandMommy you're pushing the wrong buttons. I didn't say I didn't know that you were supposed to blend, I just said I overlooked it for a second and forgot about it. I mentioned that it was a good piece of advice that I didn't think to mention.
 
#31 ·
I totally agree with you...I think the key is finding a set-up which allows you to make those color changes with ease. I think that just about any mouthpiece can achieve a certain sound you are looking for through embouchure changes, etc., etc., etc...it's finding what's comfortable and what works AND having the musical knowledge and integrity to know when to blend, when not to blend, etc., etc.
 
#32 ·
I totally agree with you...I think the key is finding a set-up which allows you to make those color changes with ease. I think that just about any mouthpiece can achieve a certain sound you are looking for through embouchure changes, etc., etc., etc...it's finding what's comfortable and what works AND having the musical knowledge and integrity to know when to blend, when not to blend, etc., etc.
True, just some make it a little easier ;)
 
#33 ·
I think sometimes people confuse "edge" for "brightness". Bright is OK; edge is not. Edge is the characteristic of a saxophonist's sound that allows him/her to stick out in a rock or big band. It's much easier to have a bright sound with edge, and bright sounds often have edge, but it isn't always the case. People like Eugene Rousseau and Claude Delangle have very light and bright sounds - but at the same time they can blend them and (most importantly) control them so that inappropriate edge doesn't bleed in.

The point is that dark doesn't always equal good for a classical sound. It is EASIER to have a good dark classical sound than a good bright classical sound. If dark always equaled good, Joe Lovano would have an excellent classical sound, and he obviously doesn't. (His sound is dark with edge.)

EDIT: I should note that my "ideal" classical sound is bright and agile...it should sound like a voice.
 
G
#37 ·
I've been playing sax for 3 years and I have just been recognizing that my sound is too bright. I have even just upped my reed to a 3 1/2 vandoren traditional (good hard reed) but I still get brightness. This might be good if I'm going to the jazz section (which eventually I want to) but I also mainly only want to be a classical dark tone player. Is there anyway to get my tone to be darker and rounder like somehow with my embachure or something? ( I have tried the s80 mouthpiece, but I think I might've gotten it in a smaller facing than I could've, since I got a C* but STILL got a bright sound)

Btw, just to compare with my friend

What is a better tone(which I know is subjective, but in a general case) and please say why

A very very clear tone with a medium bright to bright sound

A sort of muffled tone with a nice warm sound

Thank you so much
OK everyone, let's have some perspective here. Kevin says he has been playing for 3 years. Now, if you were in my school district, that would put you in the 7th grade.

Kevin, not to minimize your eagerness to achieve a nice, dark classical sound, but what you need right now is to get a good private teacher and to practice. This will be far more beneficial to you than worrying about gear.

Good Luck! Keep practicing and have fun!
 
#38 ·
I've been playing sax for 3 years and I have just been recognizing that my sound is too bright. I have even just upped my reed to a 3 1/2 vandoren traditional (good hard reed) but I still get brightness. This might be good if I'm going to the jazz section (which eventually I want to) but I also mainly only want to be a classical dark tone player. Is there anyway to get my tone to be darker and rounder like somehow with my embachure or something? ( I have tried the s80 mouthpiece, but I think I might've gotten it in a smaller facing than I could've, since I got a C* but STILL got a bright sound)

Btw, just to compare with my friend

What is a better tone(which I know is subjective, but in a general case) and please say why

A very very clear tone with a medium bright to bright sound

A sort of muffled tone with a nice warm sound

Thank you so much
OK everyone, let's have some perspective here. Kevin says he has been playing for 3 years. Now, if you were in my school district, that would put you in the 7th grade.

Kevin, not to minimize your eagerness to achieve a nice, dark classical sound, but what you need right now is to get a good private teacher and to practice. This will be far more beneficial to you than worrying about gear.

Good Luck! Keep practicing and have fun!
x2,

I agree that embouchure work is what probably needs to be done the most. Of course, certain mouthpieces will help this along. As far as I'm concerned, doing embouchure work AND getting another mouthpiece is the best of both worlds. Double whammy, so to speak. :D
But yeah, the way I would recommend would be what you said and getting as dark a sound as possible on the current mouthpiece and then switching to a mouthpiece that gets a darker sound so that way they get the most potential out of the new mouthpiece as possible.
 
#39 ·
I'm researching this for NASA (space, not sax). When looking at sound quality alone, I've found that the horn makes up about 15%, neck/mouthpiece is about 25%, 10% is the reed condition, and the rest is the musician. The hardware helps with pitch accuracy between notes and responsiveness, but tone quality is almost entirely the player. That's why good players sound good, even on a bad horn, and a bad player sounds bad, even on a good horn.

Practice on your embouchure with long tones. Defining sound as bright or dark or big or small or whatever is using ambiguous words to describe something subjective. The research software I made provides a quantifiable, objective and accurate display of what your sound actually is, and compares it to a professional, so you can make adjustments accordingly. You'd be surprised at what a "classical" sound looks like.
 
#40 ·
NASA has you researching saxophones?
 
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