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Couturier Saxophones

50K views 94 replies 23 participants last post by  saxophender 
#1 ·
As announced:

THE MUSIC TRADE REVIEW December 9, 1922
 
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#47 ·
I have decided to cover remarkable models, which denote e.g. a certain period of time, separately, hence I have started the 'INSPIRATION' in an own thread.
 
#48 ·
Timeline of Couturier related saxophones*

1. Made by Couturier November 1922 - September 1923

- Distributors: Couturier, Gretsch, Whaley Royce - Canada

2. Receivership October 1923 - March 1924

2.1 Lyon&Healy 'American Professional' Oct-Nov. 1923
2.2 'Inspiration' February - March 1924

3. Lyon&Healy April 1924 - March 1928

3.1 'Couturier Model' April 1924 - 1925
3.2 'Artist Model' series I 1925 - 1926
3.3 'Artist Model' series IIa/IIb 1926 - March 1928

4. Holton Era April 1928-30/31

4.1 Lyon&Healy Artist Model series IIb, series III made by Holton
4.2 Collegiate I
4.3 Beaufort American

*The 'Perfect Curved Soprano' (special edition model), second line,
trademarks and stencils are addressed separately.


For more clarity and flexibility each model will be discussed in a detached thread.
The model history is going to be continued with the 'Couturier Model'.
 
#51 ·
I just bought a Couturier C Melody sax with the clown face and linked G#/C#, serial 200XXX for about 100 USD. It was black, corroded and completely unplayable - but was all original and complete including the original white pads, a Christmas gift card from "Mother", a business card from the place that sold the horn, the original reeds from L&H, the Lyon & Healy warranty, and an interesting L&H C mel mouthpiece with a metal lining. Stripped it all down (which was difficult because some of the rods had corroded onto the tubes - took 2 days of attempting various techniques before I got them out), then put it through a chemical bath to remove the silver sulfide. Finally I replaced corks and felts and put new pads in and regulated the action. It is now a beautiful horn and has the best intonation of any C mel I have overhauled (Bueschers and Conns). I thought I might sell it, but it sounds so nice I will keep it and play it. It will join my Couturier straight and L&H Couturier perfect curved sopranos as part of my collection. All very nice playing horns.
 
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#53 ·
I got rid of my last Buescher C mel because the intonation was pathetic compared to the Conn Chu C mel that I have (although generally I am a Buescher fan and regularly play a "Big B" alto and tenor, plus a Buescher tipbell soprano). Several Buescher C mels have passed through my hands, some have good intonation and some not so good. Same with the Conns (I think Conns generally have spotty intonation versus Bueschers, with some notes sharp and some flat throughout the range of the horn. Bueschers tend to have great intonation at the bottom end on up to middle C. Then, as is typical with many saxes, middle D, E and F are sharp and yet the top end is pretty spot on. That's my experience anyway.).

What I noticed between the Conn and the Buescher was that the Conn had better intonation and a more soulful sound, more jazz oriented. However, I kept the Conn because of the intonation as the tonal difference with the Buescher was not significant. However, the difference between the Conn C mel (which I have really enjoyed for several years) and the Couturier is noticeable. The intonation of the Couturier is much better and the sound is more focused and rich (better harmonics?). The dynamic range also seems better, but that is purely subjective. I did ask another muso to do a blind listening test on the L&H Couturier versus the Conn and she had pretty much the same comment - the L&H had better focus and richness of tone.

It is a fun horn to play.
 
#54 ·
Thank you for the informative description of the sound quality of Couturier's first saxophone coming out of the factory in LaPorte. I feel similiar tendencies playing the Couturier alto.
 
#55 ·
Further info on the Lyon and Healy Saxes---FYI, I am a new guy on saxontheweb but an old sax player from the last three generations---Stevethebeave. Just picked up a Silver Plated L & H C Melody in very good condition with the calf-skin pads and new springs. All notes play pretty well so I am thinking about $300 as a value?
 
#57 ·
Been there a year or so!

Also a Couturier-made York with the unusual gold-keyed silver-body finish now at eBay. Someone buy this so I'm not tempted.
 
#58 ·
Been there a year or so!

QUOTE]

Yup; even in what seems to be quite good condition at a fairly thrifty price and being sold from a dealer with a clear trial and return policy there it was and there it remains.

As with so many classic vintage horns, value is in the eye of the enthusiast... but that eye is quite a distance from the hand that pulls out the wallet.
 
#59 ·
The number one factor in choosing a brand of saxophone is, of course, merchandising.
Absent number one, number two is people of reputation who play or played it.
Absent number two, number three is collectible status.
Absent number three...there ain't no number four.

Dave ought not bill that horn as a Martin stencil. It isn't, and maybe he'd have some nibbles on it as a minor collectible if he played up the Couturier-L&H lineage.
 
#60 ·
Actually number four- pushing number one for me- is my perception of the "thoughtfullness" of the mechanical design and its execution. Thus, I wind up with Apogee's, Evette-Schaeffer systems, Wiedoefts, Semi-Rationales, "Typewriters", 28ms et al. All (less perhaps the Rudy which is sort of iffy in some regards) play just fine as far as tone ETC in my view. I play quite a bit- but purely for my own enjoyment these days. I'd surely not chose any of my darlings for use as a gigging musician- though the good WarpX and his LeBlanc Sytem tenor surely roll on in a rather creditable manner.

Might be a subset of three I suppose.

Easy enough mistake for Dave; not that many out there and- as with my old Holton tenor- the toneholes are pretty darned close to Martin... and Martin was surely a prolific stenciller in its day.
 
#61 ·
You reveal yourself to be a pure collector - one whose interest extends well beyond what's recognized as collectible.
 
#63 ·
Timeline of Couturier related saxophones

1. Made by Couturier November 1922 - September 1923

- Distributors: Couturier, Gretsch, Whaley Royce - Canada

2. Receivership October 1923 - March 1924

2.1 Lyon&Healy 'American Professional'
2.2 'American Professional'
2.3 'Inspiration'

3. Lyon&Healy April 1924 - March 1928

3.1 'Couturier Model' April 1924 - 1925
3.2 'Artist Model' series I 1925 - 1926
3.3 'Artist Model' series IIa/IIb 1926 - March 1928

4. Holton Era April 1928-March1930

4.1 Lyon&Healy Artist Model series IIb, series III made by Holton
4.2 Collegiate I
4.3 Beaufort American

5. Elkhart Band Instrument Company April 1930 - 1931/32[/COLOR]

5.1 The Couturier-Elkhart Model
One of the rare Gretsch distributed Couturier saxophones http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Great-G...812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7607e03c in really poor condition.
 
#64 ·
I have a Couturier C Melody sax that I've owned for maybe 12 years. Could anyone help me identify exactly which variety this is?

The Couturier brand, place of manufacture (La Porte, IN), "Flower" engraving, and distributor (Landay Bros., New York) Musical instrument Drinkware Liquid Fluid Wind instrument

Number on underside of right hand C key Automotive design Auto part Metal Fashion accessory Macro photography

Serial number Tire Bicycle tire Automotive tire Bicycle wheel Motor vehicle


It played pretty nicely when I first bought it, even though the pads were obviously old. The previous owner said his father had been the original owner and had played it in a professional band (though "professional" was not defined.) He also told me he thought the pads had to be custom cut, though I don't know enough to know why that might be the case. The pads on it are made from a white material I'm not used to seeing in sax pads.
 
#67 ·
I'm trying to decide whether to sell the Couturier C sax described below, or to have it repaired. (I have the name of someone who's supposed to be good with old band instruments, but no estimate yet.)

Any input at all may be helpful...

Thanks!

Galen
:treble::line0:
I have a Couturier C Melody sax that I've owned for maybe 12 years. Could anyone help me identify exactly which variety this is?

The Couturier brand, place of manufacture (La Porte, IN), "Flower" engraving, and distributor (Landay Bros., New York) View attachment 37134
Number on underside of right hand C key View attachment 37135
Serial number View attachment 37136
 
#66 ·
I agree, the resemblance with Couturier is intriguing. Nevertheless I doubt that this is made by Couturier. A few years ago I found an early Conn alto with bevelled toneholes just like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/1904-Conn-W...896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7af49aa8
made by Conn. The seller indicates the SN being 9344 which is very close to my Couturier alto #9326. I will compare the photos side by side with my alto and report as soon as possible.

Thank you for your interesting contribution.
 
#69 ·
#72 ·
Thank you for the link! The 'Music Trade Review' and 'Presto' belonged to my most important researching sources.
Yes, I think that additional engravings were made by each retailer separately.
 
#77 ·
I recently purchased a Couturier Alto Saxophone (My avatar is a picture of the saxophone itself), but I don't really know where to begin in identifying it.

The serial number/identification listed on it is
A
9368
L

and it does have the "flower" engraving mentioned earlier in this thread. Any ideas?

I also wanted to mention discovering this thread while researching the saxophone I bought was a huge swaying factor in my decision. Thanks for all the information posted in here!
 
#79 ·
I recently purchased a Couturier Alto Saxophone (My avatar is a picture of the saxophone itself), but I don't really know where to begin in identifying it. ...
The bell engraving says:

Made by
Couturier Co.
LaPorte
IND​

right? That says it all.

... I also wanted to mention discovering this thread while researching the saxophone I bought was a huge swaying factor in my decision. Thanks for all the information posted in here!
Cheers! Welcome on SOTW!
 
#78 · (Edited)
Couturier fans should have a look at this soprano for sale on eBay. I think it probably is a Conn, but have a look at the palm keys. Based on the serial number this should be a Conn soprano of the "New Wonder" variety from about 1921, but the palm keys are very odd. Conn used a more traditional palm key arrangement on its straight sops, but this key arrangment was used on its curved sopranos. L&H must have insisted that the "in line" style keys be used on the stencil.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390517585989?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
 
#80 ·
Couturier fans should have a look at this soprano for sale on eBay. I think it probably is a Conn, but have a look at the palm keys. Based on the serial number this should be a Conn soprano of the "New Wonder" variety from about 1921, but the palm keys are very odd. Conn used a more traditional palm key arrangement on its straight sops, but this key arrangment was used on its curved sopranos. L&H must have insisted that the "in line" style keys be used on the stencil.
Interesting and rare find! I agree in your analysis, thus this soprano may be not for Couturier fans above all. From the floral engraving this soprano is built around 1925, just as the seller assumes.
 
#82 ·
Bruce,

I have never seen these in line palm keys on a straight Conn of that period, but on all the curved ones I have come across. Have you seen many straight ones with this palm key arrangement?
 
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