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Super 20 Fan Club

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G
#1 ·
We're baa-aaaack! Super 20 players, stand up and be counted.

Super 20 tenor, 364xxx, silver neck, brass bell, no pearls on the side :(

I've had this horn since 1974 (sophomore year high school). Dad paid $75 for the horn, then another $100 for a complete overhaul/relacquer (it needed it).

Despite what you may have read, these are very flexible horns, adaptable to all musical styles. The combination of the sterling silver neck along with bore taper/neck curve/bow curve allows the Super 20 tenors to bring out the best in a variety of mouthpiece setups.
 
#177 ·
Just traded my 5 digit MK VI for Super 20 alto+

Hi everyone,

I have just completed a trade with Dave at JunkDude music. I have traded my 1954 MK VI for two horns. A really great playing 275xxx S20 alto. Wow, what have I been missing? And an extremely rare Conn Connquerer 26M vii. I am really pleased with both instruments, but the S20 blows me away.I've been a professional saxophonist for many years with a Wash. DC military band and played a lot of Selmers, but have never played a S20. I am a convert. I have a physical problem with my neck and horns with too much resistance, but my S20 is great. It's a relacquer, but who cares, I am tickeled pink!:D :D
 
#179 ·
Hello guys (I suppose there are -as usual :cry: - no females around here),
Just found out about this forum, as I was googling to find out some things about my new tenorsaxophone: a S20 silver neck, full pearls, #299.501! Am very happy with it, although I have to take time to get used to the different pinky-cluster and a very, very heavy low C# key (was playing MVI). Also I am looking for a good case or gigbag for the horn, as most of the brands are built for selmer-type horns. Any advice?
 
#181 · (Edited)
hi guys
Just wanted to share with you something.
I used to play a Link STM 7* on my 390k Cleveland 20, as you can see in my avatar, which is by the way not as fancy as other people's around here nowadays ;)

Anyway I love the way these two worked together. So yesterday I thought it was really time to get ride of the Series III tenor I still owned. It didn't see any daylight for two years for obvious reasons... Tried to sell it but with no luck, so I went to a local dealer and we came to a nice agreement. Before I left the shop he wanted me to show something, a mouthpiece a he made himself. And that, my dear S20 co-lovers, was when my saxophone showed her real voice.

Everything we love about these horns (and was already there with my Link, mind you) is now doubled! Don't remember when or where, but somebody on this forum once used the following phrase to describe a S20: "It shifts and gears like no other". Well, there it is. So I bought the piece for some tough bucks, but hey, the guy had spent three weeks on the thing!

It has a very subtle roll-over baffle (no step baffle, I hate them) and has a huge tip (I think it's a 0.120 , so Link 9, but I have to measure it to be sure) but combined with a Java 2.5 I have no problems taming this beast down when I have to. I don't really know after which piece he has modelled it. He said he looked closely at Guardala's, but they mostly have baffles, don't they?
So if you think your S20 is roaring, it can always roar harder. That's the beauty of these horns. Either by swapping your piece or building better chops of course. These are ultimate horns.

(btw in the shop I compared my horn to a whole bunch of cannonballs; well :D I'm a PhD student researching dimensionality reductions, and I might start my thesis with the difference between a Cannonball and a S20. The Cannonball may have the volume, but to really roar, you gotta have multiple dimensions in the sound at all volumes, often referred to as character. A cannonball is basically a S20 ofter some serious dimensionality reduction)

Roar in peace ;)
 
#182 ·
makemyday said:
Hello guys (I suppose there are -as usual :cry: - no females around here),
Just found out about this forum, as I was googling to find out some things about my new tenorsaxophone: a S20 silver neck, full pearls, #299.501! Am very happy with it, although I have to take time to get used to the different pinky-cluster and a very, very heavy low C# key (was playing MVI). Also I am looking for a good case or gigbag for the horn, as most of the brands are built for selmer-type horns. Any advice?
Welcome.................sounds like a great horn. Aside from the original King cases, I don't think you'll find any gig bag out there made for Kings. However, I've been using a Selmer flight case for years for my S20 tenor. It was never an exact fit, but it holds the horn well and I've never had a problem.
 
#185 ·
How About Super 20 Baris?

I am thinking of buying a bari (of some kind). Mostly I would be playing rock and R&B on the thing, some jazz, no classical all. I want a bright, robust, loud horn. And I have it in my head that a Super 20 Bari might be just the ticket. I like the Super 20 altos and tenors.

However, I have looked on e-bay, on many of the web sites of vintage sax folks, done google searches, etc. In the past several months I have never found any Super 20 baris for sale anywhere at any price.

I am curious about several things:

1) Has anyone played one, and -- if so -- what are your opinions.
2) What's the deal? How come you never see them?
3) Does anyone have an idea of a price range for these horns if you can find them.

My gut tells me that because I haven't even seen ONE for sale, that if I did find one, it would have a premium price tag.

Any help would be appreciated.

Scott Ramminger
 
#186 ·
What are the differences between early and late super 20's

Hello to the fan club from Basingstoke, UK
From what I had heard about them a few years ago I decided I would like one day to own a King. At my local sax group last week I heard a guy play this horn that was far louder than anyone else's, and it was his newly acquired super 20. He let me handle it, now I just HAVE to get one.
But I need to know the answers to some questions. I am sorry there are so many, the first question is the most important:

Did the sound of these horns change from one type to another between 40's-50's to 60's, and if so, how?
Was it a gradual or sudden change?
I am a bit confused by one descripton of the Eastlakes/late Clevelands as a Jazz horn. Jazz opposed to what? Classical? Pop? I mean to me Cannonball Adderley is very different from Stan Getz/ Paul Desmond, but they are all Jazz. I am not very well versed in the terms for describing sax sounds. If it's any help, to me "piercing" sounds good! All I know is I want ultimate POWER!
Some people say that the Eastlake horns have even more of a "killer" sound. Why would this be?
What physical changes to the horn were responsible for the change? The silver neck? or lack of it? or the underslung octave?
Is the double socket neck important?
How did the bore changes leading up to the move to Eastlake, or changes after Eastlake, affect the sound?
Although I like to play 50's r'n'b and r'n'r, to me a terrific track is Jack McVea's "Wino", Joe Liggins's "Tania" and Lee Allen playing with Little Richard are also good, I enjoy later soul sounds as well, eg Junior Walker, and am into "growling" etc, so should I look for an earlier or later horn, or are there advantages in having either? just because the Eastlakes were made after the 50's, I am not sure if that would necessarily mean they are unsuitable for playing 50's sounds.
Currently I have a mid 50's Dolnet Bel-Air which I am very pleased with, but it was out blown by this super 20!. I have had some success in improving my sound with different mouthpieces, recently bought a Dukoff D8, (soft, aren't they?) and also with shaving the edges of my reeds.
My best wishes to the club, and hope to be able to join you soon.
 
#187 ·
Hi Ben

There's some archives of this forum at http://www.saxpics.com/the%5Fgallery/king/misc/kings20club/. The first thread contained in 1.doc contains a discussion about Eastlake vs Cleveland models.

From looking at the Saxpics site, it looks like all the double-socketed neck versions have the same bore, with the modern keywork you're looking for from the 305xxx models on. The bore evolved between 380xxx and 426xxx into the Eastlake bore. What changed and when is something someone else here might be able to answer.:?

Other changes in sound could be caused by the materials - combinations are all brass, silver neck, silver neck and bell. Again, someone here may have compared the materials.:dontknow:

There is a silver-necked Eastlake located in London on eBay at the moment: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KING-SUPER-20-TENOR-SAXOPHONE_W0QQitemZ7398819592QQcategoryZ16234QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem. This will the same as the Eastlake you tried on Monday (I'm guessing you're the Ben that tried my sax), except for the silver neck. Provided it's well set up, you should get a fair comparison.

Other stuff I've gleaned about the Eastlake models are that in the mid 70s imported body tubes were used - these have drawn tone holes rather than the braised-on ones used on US-made tubes. The bell tone holes are always braised on, so it is the body tube you need to look at. I think there was an overlap in production using these two body tube types, so a serial number boundary can't be easily defined. These drawn body tonehole models should be cheaper than the braised tonehole models, and indeed are. However, the early (braised tonehole) Eastlake models are in the same price bracket as the later ones (drawn tonehole), despite being the genuine article, and you can therefore save quite a bit over a late Cleveland by getting one of these.

So basically your choices are a post 305xxx double-socket in silversonic, silver-necked or all brass (the silver neck was optional after 340xxx), and an early Eastlake again in silversonic, silver-necked or all brass. I don't know what happened with the single-socket neck clevelands. Anyone?:help:

Good luck in your search

David
 
#188 ·
Hah!
Dave, it's you!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for answering, There's a couple of 466xxxs available at the moment.
I didn't know about the imported bodies from the mid 70's on and haven't seen any reference to that anywhere else either, do you have a closer idea of when that change occurred?
I'm assuming it wouldn't affect anything around 466xxx.
The info in Saxpics seems to imply that double socket necks went out at 380xxx, and this is corroborated by the available photo's, I looked at them all and all the series 3's had doubles, and all the 4's had singles.
I've looked at that silver neck on ebay in London, but I couldn't match his price, (he told me what the reserve was when I went to see him, but I don't think it would be fair to publish it here)
See you in a week or two mate.
Ben
 
#189 ·
Ben,

The only differences from the earlier model Super 20s that I know of as far as design are (like you said) the underslung octave mechanism, and the fact that some of them have a double socket neck and the different combinations of silver and brass for the bell and neck. If and how this affects the sound of the horn I have no clue. I think the biggest difference that is going to affect your wallet is that the earlier models have more elaborate engraveing on them and some of the early Super 20s also had mother of pearl keys. As far as whether the earlier or later horns have a better sound, I think that's all going to be a matter of opinion. I have heard some people say that the earlier horns are better and then again I've heard some people, like my teacher, say that they prefer the later models. I own a Super 20 Silversonic in the 600,000 serial# range and I love it. Just try out as many as you can and forget all the opinions about what is better between earlier/later model Super 20s, becasue when it comes down to it, that's all you're hearing is opinions. Try 'em all out and pick the one that you like best, because you're going to be the one playing the horn which means that the only opinion that matters is yours. Good luck, and I hope you find a horn that you really enjoy.
 
#190 ·
I've had a few Super 20s (and Zephyrs) and played a few more...in my opinion the bodies with the brazed-on toneholes have quite a different sound than the later ones with the drawn THs (I'm pretty sure these bodies were imported from Japan). But I can't really tell much difference among the brazed-on TH horns up through about 600,000...somewhere around there they changed, but I don't know when. I have also found the response of Super 20s to be a bit more sensitive to setup than some other designs...key height in particular, but also reso size. I offer the conjecture that this is perhaps responsible for the wide variation in perception of people who have only played 2 or 3 S20s. The one S20 that I have kept is an Eastlake 454xxx, and I have set it up to my taste (set up as a 'bar' R&R horn with large domes, modest key height, neck tenon real tight, etc...) and it pleases me more than any other S20 I have played recently, including horns that I have set up for others (although to their tastes rather than mine).
 
#191 ·
I've had a few Super 20s (and Zephyrs) and played a few more...in my opinion the bodies with the brazed-on toneholes have quite a different sound than the later ones with the drawn THs (I'm pretty sure these bodies were imported from Japan). But I can't really tell much difference among the brazed-on TH horns up through about 600,000...somewhere around there they changed, but I don't know when. I have also found the response of Super 20s to be a bit more sensitive to setup than some other designs...key height in particular, but also reso size. I offer the conjecture that this is perhaps responsible for the wide variation in perception of people who have only played 2 or 3 S20s. The one S20 that I have kept is an Eastlake 454xxx, and I have set it up to my taste (set up as a 'bar' R&R horn with large domes, modest key height, neck tenon real tight, etc...) and it pleases me more than any other S20 I have played recently, including horns that I have set up for others (although to their tastes rather than mine).
 
#192 ·
more Super 20 differences ...

There are two differences in the various vintages of Super 20's being
discussed here that have not been mentioned, and they are the table
keys, and the mechanism/linkage that activates the octave key.

After the pearls vanished in the mid '50's, the G# key was a nice,
oval shaped design. Shortly after the doublesocket necks disappeared,
which actually occurred sometime after 382K, the design of the table
key's changed and became more square in appearance. Personally I don't
like the change in appearance, and I think it's an inferior design
that makes the horn more difficult to play when performing certain
passages, especially moving around between certain combinations of
the table keys.

The octave key linkage changed dramatically shortly after the
demise of the double-socket necks, and the change was definitely
a step backwards.

The difference between the table keys and the octave key mechanism
are the two reasons I'd look for something at or earlier than 382K.
If you try both designs, I think you would find you preferred the
early models.

Also, the earlier kings around 290k don't use as many needle posts
that the rods sit and rotate on, and there is no use of locking
nuts -- I think. The linkage is much more open on the earlier
models, although slightly more sluggish when compared to the later
models that started around 305K.

And horns from about 295 - 305k have an undesirable G# key design
that negatively affects the value of the instrument, and also makes
them more challenging to play.

Also, changing from flat resonators to domed ones very noticably
thickened and focused the sound on a Silver Sonic that I have.
 
#194 ·
and another thing ...

Mike Ruhl said:
Robert, thanks for that post. So, if I read you
right, Super 20s in the 305xxx - 382xxx have the more desireable
keywork features?

Nice to know, since I play a 369xxx tenor...
Yes, in my opinion, which usually isn't worth much, the best keywork
design for Super 20's is the full pearled models made from 305K -
to-whenever-they-were-discontinued, because those models had the best
table keys, plus the rollers were all barrel-shaped pearls. After
those it's horns up to around 382K, including the small number of
single socket neck horns that retained the earlier octave key
mechanism. There was a silver sonic on eBay like that (single-socket
neck, good octave key mechanism) about 4-6 months ago.

Just last week there was a Super 20 on eBay that had the pearl rollers
on the keys but not on the G#, palm, or side keys. I'd never seen one
like that before.

One other thing to mention about early Super 20's with serial numbers
lower than approximately 305K, the side keys are not sculpted lower
like the later models. So if you have small hands you would
definitely want to try before buying to make sure you could play it
without having the palm of your hand inadvertently bumping into those
keys. Later models are designed in a different way so that they ride
lower on the horn.

And the very earliest of the Super 20's, say around 278K or so, are
totally different: The whole table key section rides lower on the
horn, making it more of a reach to play thos keys, and the two lower
RH side keys open and close their respective toneholes with levers
designed like a see-saw, rather than the later right-angled-hinged
design.

And there's at least four types of thumb keys for the octave
mechanism, too, as well as at least four different G# keys.
 
#195 ·
A couple things have come up...the octave key change is a mixed blessing...the later ones are much faster and with appropriate reshaping of the thumb spatula (to emphasize the actuation on the diagonal rather than the vertical) these can actually be adjusted to be superior to the original design IMHO. The LH spatula can be retrofitted with barrel shaped single roller and it is much improved (have to turn one on a lathe...I use macor rod). One of the big problems with the double socket necks is that it is very hard to get a snug fit, which (IMHO) increases the responsiveness of the horn. You have to basically disassemble the tenon, fit the stub and then reassemble it. With the horns after 382XXX (single tenon) it is much easier to get a tighter fit and I believe this is why more of these horns are 'killer'
 
#196 ·
necks and octave keys

shmuelyosef said:
A couple things have come up...the octave key
change is a mixed blessing...the later ones are much faster and with
appropriate reshaping of the thumb spatula (to emphasize the actuation
on the diagonal rather than the vertical) these can actually be
adjusted to be superior to the original design IMHO. The LH spatula
can be retrofitted with barrel shaped single roller and it is much
improved (have to turn one on a lathe...I use macor rod). One of the
big problems with the double socket necks is that it is very hard to
get a snug fit, which (IMHO) increases the responsiveness of the horn.
You have to basically disassemble the tenon, fit the stub and then
reassemble it. With the horns after 382XXX (single tenon) it is much
easier to get a tighter fit and I believe this is why more of these
horns are 'killer'
My first S20 was 394K horn and the way the octave mechanism see-sawed
was always a constant source of aggravation, and required regular
adjustment, which is the experience my comments were based on. I
recall having a conversation with the the sax tech I use about the
post 382K octave mechanism, and he was wondering what they had been
doing. It's certainly not the best octave key actuation system,
that's for sure.

As far as getting a tight fit on a double-socket neck, the same
aforementioned tech had no problems refitting mine, and he did
it in about 1 minute while I waited. I don't know what it was
he did, but he fixed it.

And boy am I careful taking those necks on and off, and when
moving the mouthpiece on the neck. When the neck is attached
to the horn, I always support the effort by firmly holding
onto "the neck only," and I always remove the neck from the
horn before removing the mouthpices from the neck - which
I hope keeps the wear and tear to a minimum.
 
#197 ·
It is easy to get the neck to 'clamp tight' with the outer socket, but the inner socket is actually much thicker and supports and seals much better...expanding it and lapping it to fit requires removing the outer socket OR compressing the receiver, which I don't generally like to do (although I can't tell you why I don't like to)....just doesn't seem right, somehow. This might be an interesting topic for the maintenance column, as I have never really thought deeply about it.

A well-fitted neck should play well with the clamp screw not tightened in my opinion, and you should feel some resistance as you insert and remove it, but not enough that you get friction or have to feel like you're really pushing hard on the neck. I always tell folks to hold the bell firmly in your right hand and insert the neck with your left...gives the best stability and reduces the chance of damaging the tenon.
 
#198 ·
shmuelyosef said:
It is easy to get the neck to 'clamp tight' with
the outer socket, but the inner socket is actually much thicker and
supports and seals much better...expanding it and lapping it to fit
requires removing the outer socket OR compressing the receiver, which
I don't generally like to do (although I can't tell you why I don't
like to)....just doesn't seem right, somehow. This might be an
interesting topic for the maintenance column, as I have never really
thought deeply about it.

A well-fitted neck should play well with the clamp screw not
tightened in my opinion, and you should feel some resistance as you
insert and remove it, but not enough that you get friction or have to
feel like you're really pushing hard on the neck. I always tell folks
to hold the bell firmly in your right hand and insert the neck with
your left...gives the best stability and reduces the chance of
damaging the tenon.
This conversation reminds me of an idea I had once when the
double-socket necked horn mentioned previously needed to be resized:
What effect, if any, would a rubber o-ring have that pressed up into
the gap between the two diameters of the neck socket? If it was made
of high quality rubber, like a carburetor o-ring, for example, it
might last a fairly long time and provide an absolutely airtight
seal. I don't know what kind of clearance there is up inside the
neck of a S20, but if there's space a little o-ring could make a
difference. It may also be possible to have one that sits on the
bottom of the horn sleeve, or whatever it's called, that seals
around the base of the neck tenon.
 
#200 ·
The brass neck S20s are just as awesome IMHO as the silver-necks. The difference is subtle...it mostly the coolness factor of the silver that makes you feel different. The only real careful experience I've had is my current S20 tenor (454xxx) for which I have both a silver and brass neck. If I don't pay attention, I really can't tell the difference, but on recordings I can hear a subtle edge that comes from the silver neck that isn't present with the brass...could be in my head.
 
#201 ·
I own a 1976 tenor 576xxx (brass underslung necked originally-now with Silver Gloger neck) that has brazed tone holes. I've played an early 600xxx Sml Silver necked (Over the top octave key with the unique SML neck brace) that also had brazed on tone holes..So I'm not sure when or where the imported body drawn tone holed versions actually showed up.
Brass necked horns are great,big and somewhat dark sounding (to my ears). I find that the silver subtley opens up the High Harmonics and has a more pleasing core sound to it, though I'm sure most listener's would never know.
I much prefer the more modern left pinky cluster on Supers...with the exception of that blasted somewhat heavy C#, its easier for me to get around on than the more modern MKVI floating cluster in most instances (Plus, I've been playing my horn since I bought it new in 1977, so I'm very comfortable with it..)
To the best of my knowledge, the bore and bow size pretty much stayed the same during the production life.
Someone said-Perhaps the cat at Cybersax- that you don't own a Super, you adopt it....
Mine certainly is like a family member...I'm so glad I bought it when I did.
 
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