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Intonation on King Super 20 tenors; good, bad, or ugly?

  • I don't/wouldn't play a Super 20 because of poor intonation

    Votes: 7 6.9%
  • Super 20s have poor intonation but I play one anyway because of other qualities

    Votes: 4 3.9%
  • Intonation on a Super 20s is not great but acceptable

    Votes: 22 21.6%
  • Nothing wrong whatsoever with Super 20s. You squeak for posting this thread/poll

    Votes: 69 67.6%

King Super 20 tenors and intonation

29K views 79 replies 54 participants last post by  geoffroach 
#1 ·
King Super 20 tenors don't exactly have a reputation for spot on intonation. I am curious to hear thoughts on just how bad it is. I do not have perfect pitch but good relative pitch. I check my tuning on a tuner when I practice. Based on this experience, I would say that the intonation of Super 20 tenors certainly could be better but it is not a problem in a sense that it dampens my enthusiasm for these horns or holds me back.

What are your thoughts? Also, in anyone thinks there is a noticeable difference during the run, I would be interested to hear about what they might be.

I have attached a poll. I am assuming that answers either rely on perfect pitch or checking intonation on a tuner for the sake of objectivity. For obvious reasons, please don't vote if you haven't played at least one.

PS: Please excuse the typo in the poll. I am typographically challenged.
 
#32 ·
I have owned three super 20's but currently still have one a 299 XXX, all three have great intonation but I have talked to some older repairers about the super 20 curse, they were talking about the intonation on some of the later eastlake alto's that were quite sharp in the upper register. I have serviced over 20 super 20's and they all seemed fine to me but I do know one player(not personally) who was a fine musician who had to finally let his go because of the sharp upper register...an eastlake silversonic alto! I have a zephyr special thats as good as my super 20 as far as intonation is concerned.
 
#33 ·
my personal feeling is that "adjusting" that is pulling down the pitch up high
seems like kind of an incorrect thing to do. sure it's doable but it effects tone.
and tone is all about overtones. seems to me the horns overtones have to line up all the way up into the statosphere in order to be played correctly and give me any sense of saxisfaction. The kings that i have played and that's only a few so my opinion is limited the intonation high up in the overtone series was nuts and so far off it was bizzare.

i even have problems playing a selmer SBA in tune for this reason because it's too free blowing.

i do wish that the "idea" or the king core think could have evolved into something more refined.
 
#35 ·
my personal feeling is that "adjusting" that is pulling down the pitch up high
seems like kind of an incorrect thing to do. sure it's doable but it effects tone.
and tone is all about overtones. seems to me the horns overtones have to line up all the way up into the statosphere in order to be played correctly and give me any sense of saxisfaction.
Well embouchure pitch adjustments can definitely be made to some extent without affecting the quality of the tone. Granted, a lip-down (or up) of a full half step or more is noticeable but the usual ~20 cents adjustment isn't as long as you do it right (in my experience).
 
#34 ·
I remember reading a review of a S20 somewhere that said something along the lines of, "if you can't play it in tune, then you're just not man enough to play a S20."

As a S20 player (silver neck but not silversonic, sn 385xxx), I'm going with the 2nd from bottom option. Mine plays fairly in tune in all registers with my Tenney STM 8 and there are only a few funky notes, most noticeably the middle D. That being said, I have never played a saxophone that played every note and register in tune without any embouchure compensation. Therefore no saxophone deserves the bottom choice IMO because compensation and constant listening are always necessary to play a saxophone in tune.

I'm no professional sax tech but I believe the action setup makes quite a difference as well on S20's. My repairman (who has worked on probably hundreds of S20's over the course of his career and is by all means a S20 expert) made a noticeable difference to the intonation of my S20 by setting up the action properly after I bought it.

In my experience the "free-blowing"-ness of S20's takes some getting used to, as does switching back to a MkVI type horn. When I was at Roberto's in NY this summer I tried an $18k SBA and a few $10-15k mkVI's, and wasn't all that impressed with the sound or volume I was getting. They are just different horns and would take me a few months to get used to if I could afford one.
 
#36 ·
Just seeing this thread just now, little late, but I choose the last circle, nothing wrong whatsoever with Super 20s...I have a super 20 alto, 369xxx, Cleveland, double-socket, that I was so impressed with, with everything about it, the sound, ergonomics, nearly perfect intonation, etc...that I wanted to get a Super 20 tenor close in serial # to it.

And so I found a 367xxx tenor that plays just as great as the alto, intonation is nearly perfect as well. I've only had the tenor now for 3 weeks today, and I've adjusted to it just fine, and don't have to pay attention to it like I did in the first days that I've had it. I just blow and it sounds great in tune! It get's an overhaul on Feb 11...yippee! The King pair are my main gigging horns now. It's just funny how the tenor is so light, but yet you can get a HUGE sound on it!
 
#37 ·
I sold my Balanced Action because its intonation was out in both extremes of the horn (palm keys and bell keys). When I bought my Super 20 (320xxx), I paired it with a Lamberson L7 (.110) and was gigging on it with my big band within the month. It centers pitch very well throughout the horn, yet has a wonderful flexibility and expressiveness.
 
#40 ·
It's easy to go back and forth from Conn to Selmer, but a Super 20 requires that the player learn to "voice" the notes with a slightly different throat position. All saxes are tempered, that is, the scale (because of placement and size of the tone holes) is compromised so the horn will play relatively well in tune in all keys, but not favor one key over another. To play a Super 20 in tune, you kind of have to forget the way your Conn/Selmer plays and learn to ride that horse like it's a different animal. For instance, the tone holes on the left hand palm keys are bigger on the S-20 tenors, so the notes have a little more flex up there. This means the player has to learn to relax a little and use a lower throat position in order to avoid going very sharp. If one plays the high notes as if playing a Selmer/Conn, then it goes sharp as hell. My 2 cents...
 
#41 ·
I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

I've been a Selmer tenor player for most of my 30-year professional career. I got a 56k mk6 tenor in 1985 that I still have, and a 27k balanced action that I got in '95. I've also owned a Conn 10M and an SML revD tenor. In 2013, I found a Super 20 series 2 tenor that wasn't set up properly. I dug the sound and response but the pitch was pretty suspect. King enthusiasts told me that they will play in good tune with the proper pads and key heights. I traded in the series 2 for a series 1 S20 that was set up at Saxquest. This became my main horn for a few years and served me well in a Broadway show and a few record dates. About a year ago, I found another series 1 #299k with a sterling bell. I traded my BA tenor for it and had it overhauled. It is now my main axe. Nothing wrong with the intonation.

The altos are a different story all together. I have a #299k series 1 alto and a #320k series 2 alto. The series 1 has terrible intonation problems but the series 2 is manageable. Not great - but manageable. You can't beat the sound though.
 
#47 ·
Tenor silver sonic 375xxx plays easily in tune but excellent setup is required - thin pads, flat metal redos and very open key heights will get you there. Yes, relax your embouchure up top, but that’s a no brainer - no squeezing
 
#48 ·
Yep. I was playing with 3 -3.5 Fibracells on mouthpieces that are pretty open (115-120) and was playing sharp with a thin tone. After years I recently switched to 2-2.5 and intonation on my Series I and Series IV tenors improved to near spot on and the tone became much fuller. So as much as I thought I was relaxed, the stiffer reeds required a stiffer embouchure; hence, with a big tip I was playing sharp. (I started out on clarinet for around 10 years which is a very different beast than a tenor sax as far as embouchure which likely was partially to blame. apopros of nothing I read Benny Goodman played with 1.5 sized reeds )
 
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#53 ·
My Cleveland 1963 ish King Zephyr is one of the best tenors I have owned and played. It isn't as finicky about mouthpieces as my Selmer mkvi, and I love the contrast in sound I get with both horns. Intonation is great with the King, and I am constantly checking with a tuner while doing long tones, switching mouthpieces, etc. If anything it's a little sharp but that's probably mouthpiece placement, reed strength and me. I know this thread is geared toward Super 20s but perhaps the discussion should include the Zephyr too? I had an Eastlake Silversonic a ways back, damn I regret selling that horn. I have had at least four Conn 10m's at various times an I loved the sound but I could never get used to the neck placement and ergos. The King has it all, although as far as action the mkvi beats everything.
 
#56 ·
The intonation issues varies from horn to horn, a mouthpiece won't fix it. The last Super 20 I owned was a 333k that was overhauled by Jack at BSS a few years ago. It played as well as my Series III Tenor in tune. I'm sure the neck helped but a very good tech familiar with Kings can make adjustments to balance out some of the issues. I had a mint 369k Silver-Sonic overhauled by the late Ernie Sola and that horn was pretty wild up top. All in all they are still great horns.
 
#57 ·
I’m running out of battery in my Uber home but this:
I own 3 Cleveland tenors (the third was just too good to pass up) they’re the only tenors I play
But - That damn low C#…..
Those of you who say the intonation is fine just don’t play that note.
I play mine both in the studio and on gigs.
They’re consistent.
awesome.
Ballsy.
Better tone (for me) than both modern and vintage Semers but they’re not even close to “Spot on”.
Did I mention the low C#?
 
#58 ·
I'm running out of battery in my Uber home but this:
I own 3 Cleveland tenors (the third was just too good to pass up) they're the only tenors I play
But - That damn low C#…..
Those of you who say the intonation is fine just don't play that note.
I play mine both in the studio and on gigs.
They're consistent.
awesome.
Ballsy.
Better tone (for me) than both modern and vintage Semers but they're not even close to "Spot on".
Did I mention the low C#?
I agree that many are not the great intonation wise. 1 out 4 I owned was very good and the low c# was only about 5 cents flat.
 
#60 ·
It's a saxophone, saxophones are not pianos, they don't play in tune unless you make them play in tune, Super 20s play in tune if you are capable of making them do so, all saxophones are capable of playing bum notes, get over it, or switch to a different instrument.
 
#62 · (Edited)
I previously had a stunning 293K full pearls 1A tenor, sold it to a touring pro in the Netherlands, regretted selling the 1A, and now I have a 398,900 S20 tenor. The one simple thing that worked extremely well with both of them for me, intonation-wise, was to find a mpc that paired nicely, get a new neck cork for that particular mpc that kept me a tiny bit out further than I normally need to go (larger diameter cork), and stick with that great pairing. If you have a skilled sax tech working on your sax, you should be in the green tuning range nearly all of the time. Setup, neck cork, and mpc pairing were everything with both of my Cleveland's. The Dbl socket neck needs to be absotively, 101% perfectly round and sealing too.
 
#70 ·
The only big name Super 20 players I can think of off the top of my head are Yusef Lateef, Johnny Griffin, and Rahsaan Roland Kirk. I've listened plenty to each of these men and have never noticed any kind of intonation issues whatsoever, so I wouldn't think a strong player would have any issues. While it's been decades since I personally played a King Super 20 tenor, I suspect that the issues aren't "bad" intonation per se, but rather "different" intonation tendencies from the Selmer and Selmer copy horns most people nowadays have grown up learning on. Would someone who grew up playing Conns or Bueschers have trouble playing a King in tune? Again, I don't have relevant personal experience, but I bet the answer is "no".
 
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