Sax on the Web Forum banner

Intonation on King Super 20 tenors; good, bad, or ugly?

  • I don't/wouldn't play a Super 20 because of poor intonation

    Votes: 7 6.9%
  • Super 20s have poor intonation but I play one anyway because of other qualities

    Votes: 4 3.9%
  • Intonation on a Super 20s is not great but acceptable

    Votes: 22 21.6%
  • Nothing wrong whatsoever with Super 20s. You squeak for posting this thread/poll

    Votes: 69 67.6%

King Super 20 tenors and intonation

29K views 79 replies 54 participants last post by  geoffroach 
#1 ·
King Super 20 tenors don't exactly have a reputation for spot on intonation. I am curious to hear thoughts on just how bad it is. I do not have perfect pitch but good relative pitch. I check my tuning on a tuner when I practice. Based on this experience, I would say that the intonation of Super 20 tenors certainly could be better but it is not a problem in a sense that it dampens my enthusiasm for these horns or holds me back.

What are your thoughts? Also, in anyone thinks there is a noticeable difference during the run, I would be interested to hear about what they might be.

I have attached a poll. I am assuming that answers either rely on perfect pitch or checking intonation on a tuner for the sake of objectivity. For obvious reasons, please don't vote if you haven't played at least one.

PS: Please excuse the typo in the poll. I am typographically challenged.
 
#8 ·
I find no difference between my later Cleveland and earlyish Eastlake.

The Super 20 alto and tenor I played from the 320xxx and 350xxx vintages both had excellent intonation. If you couldn't play them in tune then you weren't trying.
Tough crowd.:D

One of the reasons I play a Super-20 tenor is, I can use virtually any mouthpiece without significant intonation problems.
Not sure your opinion really counts.:TGNCHK: You play too well and can adjust to anything.

...I thought for a while that the Gloger neck that I had purchased even improved on that, it could have been an impression produced by expectations.
So perhaps I wasted my funds? Seems to make a material difference to me.;)

My Super 20's have been very free blowing with much less resistance than my Selmers. This takes a little getting used to. The series 1 I have now is very mouthpiece friendly and has phenominal tone.
Phenomenal tone, yes who can argue with that, but I believe that the critiques address intonation across the register.

I'm a little suprised so far that most voted "Nothing wrong ..with Super 20's"? I have a nice 385xxx silver sonic tenor and I'm constanly adjusting to play in tune. Bandmates and other pros have commented how sharp I am on the upper register.

I had it overhauled a couple of years ago and recently had one of the best local technicians adjust the key heights. The horn is amazing and I love everything about the Sup20 aside from adjusting to be in tune. It would be great to have to just play this baby without thinking if I am in tune or not?

My BigB/156 tenor has great intonation and I can count on this horn always to be spot on.
I am a little surprised too but won't argue with any die-hard Super 20 fans, as I happily can count myself among them. I did own a Series I Aristocrat once (that I sold to finance my baritone), and it indeed had spot-on intonation.
 
#5 ·
If anything my two Eastlake super 20's are the tenor horns with the best intonation in my possession (I currently own a Buescher stencil and a Chinese horn ) and have always been, although I thought for a while that the Gloger neck that I had purchased even improved on that, it could have been an impression produced by expectations.
 
#7 ·
I'm a little suprised so far that most voted "Nothing wrong ..with Super 20's"? I have a nice 385xxx silver sonic tenor and I'm constanly adjusting to play in tune. Bandmates and other pros have commented how sharp I am on the upper register.

I had it overhauled a couple of years ago and recently had one of the best local technicians adjust the key heights. The horn is amazing and I love everything about the Sup20 aside from adjusting to be in tune. It would be great to have to just play this baby without thinking if I am in tune or not?

My BigB/156 tenor has great intonation and I can count on this horn always to be spot on.
 
#22 ·
I'm a little suprised so far that most voted "Nothing wrong ..with Super 20's"? I have a nice 385xxx silver sonic tenor and I'm constanly adjusting to play in tune. Bandmates and other pros have commented how sharp I am on the upper register.

I had it overhauled a couple of years ago and recently had one of the best local technicians adjust the key heights. The horn is amazing and I love everything about the Sup20 aside from adjusting to be in tune. It would be great to have to just play this baby without thinking if I am in tune or not?
Sometimes it just takes the right mouthpiece to make the difference. I had the same problem on my Selmer but I found a mouthpiece that has helped tame palm key sharpness.
 
#9 ·
I own a 385XXX Super 20 and have had no intonation problems with this horn. In fact, I've played a lot of Mark VIs that tended to vary more with intonation than Super 20s. Some were spot on, but some were pretty bad as well. I've actually found the Super 20s to be more consistent. Before I switched to tenor I played a 362XXX Super 20 that was spot on every time. If it wasn't for the fact that I wanted to switch to tenor I never would have sold that horn. Not only great intonation, but a monster player as well.
 
#10 ·
Ah squeak :) , the intonation was good even before the silver necks and I definitely had the impression the sound (and intonation) was slightly improved by the Gloger neck (as it is by the silver original neck).
But in how far that is a product of my imagination and of my expectations....I don't know.
It did play spot on........ and still does :)
 
#11 ·
I have no intonation problems with mine, but I've been playing it for 29 years now so I'm pretty well used to it. Got to say though, I didn't have any issues at all switching from an SBA, intonation or otherwise (except maybe not wanting to put the thing back in the case!).
 
#12 ·
My Silversonic is easier to play in tune than any other tenor I`ve used. I have played it for nearly 20 years and find it has good intonation with a variety of mouthpieces. All saxes need some adjustments to bring the scale in tune but my Silversonic seems to need less than most for me.
 
#13 ·
336K alto and 320K tenor--no problems with either. In fact, they play at least as well in tune as my VI alto and tenor, or my Conn 30M/26M pair. It doesn't hurt that they were both set up by Randy Jones.
 
#15 ·
Speaking only Tenor here I agree on some of the points made, but after owning a 325k S-20 , 360k Silver-Sonic and 450K Silver-Sonic all in mint condition with new overhauls I have found the following compared to 3 different VI'S and a Series III I own. I am currently play a Series III and a Mark VI right now. The biggest problem with Kings is the intonation for me. The last Silver-Sonic I owned played very well but even after key height tweaks etc. I prefer a good Selmer. The intonation between octave intervals is not even close compared to the Selmer's I've owned and I've played the Kings for long periods trying to adjust. I think some of the problem may lie with the very free blowing nature (neck bore) of S20'S. The III and VI I own are free blowing but not like a King, that (Selmer) resistance I feel helps the intonation.The focused sound of the Selmer's I still prefer also. Players like Johnny Griffin, Moody, Lateef, Mobley , Rollins and others all found similar problems and moved on to Selmers. Any of these guys could still play Kings if they wanted to. I found 10m's also had better intonation compared to the Kings but ergonomics on S20's are close to Selmers.. The Super 20's are great horns but not worth the effort IMO to constantly adjust to play in tune. These are my findings based on horns I've owned for extended periods of time not just tested on a whim.
 
#17 ·
Here's an excerpt from the late great Tubby Hayes on King's intonation. I don't buy "it's not the horn, it's the player" for a minute.

http://www.jazzprofessional.com/Exchange/HayesNistico.htm

HAYES: Right So you've always played a Conn, eh?

NISTICO: Well, before that I had a Buescher. Which is a good sound but boy, it's a big feeling in the fingers, getting around it The Conn is the same principle blowing-wise-like, you blow and it feels like the metal is spreading. That's why I think it would take me some time to get used to a Selmer. If I could do it, I think I would dig it, man-if I could find a Selmer with a good sound like you've got you know.

HAYES: Yes I've practically always played a Selmer. A couple of times, when I have played a Conn, I enjoy that sort of vibrant feeling, as you say.

NISTICO: I think, maybe it only speaks so that you hear it better yourself when you play it. Because I've heard cats with the Selmer, and it sounds better out front. It seems to be more compact, or something. Dexter has a Selmer now, man. Yes-he had an old 10M Conn, and went right to a Selmer. That's a big change. I was talking to Ronnie Scott about changing from Conn to Selmer. He says it took him some time. Boy, he sure sounds good on it. And Dexter sounds the same to me. Even Gene Ammons-he made the same change, but he's still got that old sound.

HAYES: Well I think basically your own sound comes through. To yourself at first it may sound strange, but it must come round eventually. I could never get on with a Conn, because I've got very small hands. I tried a King for a while-it had a similar vibrancy to the Conn and yet had the action of the Selmer. I liked it but I could not pitch the intervals-especially if I was going from, say, a top E or F down to G, or .something like that below. I gave it about two months try, but I just couldn't play in tune I don't know why.

NISTICO: Johnny Griffin used to play a King-he sounded beautiful. I heard Sonny's playing a Buescher now. He got it from some guy who passed away in Belgium. He wanted this horn real bad and took a special flight over there to get it. But, of course he's got a million horns I don't know how he does it man-trying all those different horns and mouthpieces every night I could never do anything like that-it's a little too much for me. But, I mean, Sonny-he's a fantastic musician. Like he knows the tenor inside out, and he's at that peak now where it doesn't matter any more. He's looking for something. I love 'Trane, but Sonny can generate so much swing, you know. He gets around so good, man.

HAYES: Personally, if I'm happy with the horn I've got, the mouthpiece the set-up the reed and everything-then I've got enough problems trying to create something different, playing-wise, rather than keep messing around changing mouthpieces, instruments and all that. I remember, whan Sonny was first here last year, he gave Ronnie a mouthpiece. I'd had this mouthpiece of mine for four or five years-I bought it off Dick Morrissey before he went to India. So Ronnie went on to this one that Sonny gave him and tried Ronnie's mouthpiece, which was much more open than mine. The first couple of nights I thought · 'Yeah-this is it-whee!' But there again your same sound comes through eventually. And I found that I was struggling, my lips were getting all cut inside, I had pains in the stomach, and all that! So I tried a Larsen. I've got a Larsen in my case there, if you want to try it.
 
#19 ·
Point taken. I thought about that and am partially inclined to agree. On the other hand, had I posted it in a general place, I bet that someone would have pointed out that this thread really belonged in the King section. Probably too late now.

If you don't mind me asking, what are your thoughts? I have followed your web-site for years and your horns turn over ever so slowly (with some obvious exceptions) but no Super 20.
 
#23 ·
I would agree with some of the earier posters regarding the free blowing nature of the S20 affecting intonation. I certainly have to " Think" myself in tune a lot more and really sing the note. I also think if you persevere this becomes second nature and the problems fade.I think also the hand made aspect of the horn comes into play and the horn evolved a lot. My current Series 1 plays much differently to a later one I had. I sold this one 20 years ago to a friend who still plays it professionaly and was recently on the European leg of the Eagles tour with a horn section playing it. He also has a V1 but prefers the King. I haven't used mine in a studio situation yet.

ps the Tubby interview was great thanks for posting that.
 
#24 ·
I certainly think that intonation is a COMBINATION of player and saxophone characteristics (we continuously talk about a number of factors affecting intonation .........too many to quote........if it was only down to the players we wouldn't discuss those ). However I have to say that the 2 Super 20 tenors (Eastlake) in my possession (with or without silver neck or with the Gloger I previously had) have no intonation quirks, in combination with my playing that is.
The Super 20 alto made in usa (post Eastlake) and another (Cleveland) that I have tried are a different kettle of fish. I have more problems with those, with certain mouthpieces more than others. The tone? Second to none! But the question is, can I play it in tune? It requires lot of attention and lots of continuous playing (I am an amateur nothing more than that, but I like to double on Tenor and C melody, even within my limited abilities) on it. I also have few other altos (Gas, Gas, Gas) and I have few to no problems to play much less noble and famous brands, consequently in tune.

By the way I voted no problems, because I tend to think that my tenors are perfect intonation-wise.
 
#26 ·
Well it's certainly true that a lot of players from the late 50's early sixties..I'm thinking of Griffin, Booker Ervine changed to Mark V1's..I know Griffin is said to have had his stolen but he could have got another S20 if that's true. Yusef Lateef I've seen playing a S20 and a silver V1 from the same time.
I think it's telling that I can't remember seeing S20 tenors in the name big band sections and I can only remember seeing Arnie Lawrence playing an alto apart from Cannonball on his big band records.
Kirk switched to S20 from a V1 but he was a law unto himself and on the DVD's I've got of him playing live I like the wide open sound of his S20 better.
In the rock world Jon Smith and Jim Horn pretty much defined the Super 20 I think.
 
#27 ·
I have an S20 Silversonic, 372XXX and I have 2 mouthpieces I use. An old berg 95/1 which gets a great sound, but plays a little sharp up top. But, playing sharp up top forces me to keep a better embouchure and keep everything open so I get a bigger/better sound up top when I actually do that. It also somehow plays in tune when I actively practice that way. Also playing on a good reed really helps with the intonation. I also have a 110/2 berg which plays spot on in tune (probably due to the bigger chamber), but the sound isn't as vibrant. So, at least my horn seems more mouthpiece dependent on intonation.

As a side note, when trying out horns before I bought this S20, I tried a Mark VI 140XXX which played so poorly out of tune with these mouthpieces it was horrible. The side Bb was abnormally flat and there's not much you can do about that. Other than that the intonation was no better or worse than the S20.
 
#28 ·
I voted second from the bottom and played Super 20s for years. The "no problem" for me has only been experienced with Yanagisawas. For some reason, I can play any Yani just by ear without consciously adjusting. The Super 20 I had to pay attention. The only other horn I've had where I didn't have to be conscious of intonation was an old Buescher "Big B" alto...loved that horn, don't know why I sold it
 
#29 ·
I play a 45xxxx eastlake silversonic tenor. when the weather is hot or cold, intonation is an issue. otherwise it is tolerable. I have been told it is the silver neck that is vulnerable temp changes and tuning. I have other horns that have better intonation, but they don't play like the king. I recently played a older cleveland super 20 with very good intonation. the earlier models also had a different bore making them different from the newer models.

smf
 
#30 ·
The palm-key notes are a slightly thin on my 454XXX Super 20 tenor, but the pitch of the horn throughout the registers is spot on.

For those who have intonation with your 20's, have a tech look at it: A number of things could create the problem, including how high or low the keys or key cups are, your mouthpiece and reed, pads.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Big Woo
#31 ·
so any math heads want to determine if the poll results are statistically significant? Perhaps compare across other models, publish a scientific paper... 70% seems reasonable given age and manufacturing variability, or even skill level. =P
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top