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The Forgotten American Manufacturer

54K views 157 replies 25 participants last post by  ZootTheSim 
#1 ·
E.A. Couturier was a gorgeous cornet player and a respected manufacturer of brass (conical bore patent).

The fact that he was a manufacturer of fine saxophones, too, is not well known.

Is anybody interested in info/discussion about

history
series
technical details
stencilling companies
serial numbers/years of manufacturing
patent info
advertisement
sound
etc.?

Please let me know.

Felix
 
#3 ·
I am very intrested in this topic and never heard of these saxophones until Mr. LaPorte's
research, which is much appreciated. I have seen a few saophones marked "Couturier" and many marked "Lyon and Healy. They appear identical, except for the later feature of interlocking palm keys found on my Lyon and Healy "clown face" alto. I suppose most people (myself included) dismissed them as an older French-made saxophone, based on the name. I would love to see a Couturier catalog to view the saxophones. I just finished a Lyon and Healy Buescher stencil, which plays very well. These are easy to spot, as they have the Buescher patent date (1915) on the back.
 
#4 ·
I would love to read some more infomation about Couturier, unfortunately I don't have anything to add but I do love saxophone manufacturer history.

Not to stray too far off topic, but one thing that is often seen is Couturier stencils that are incorrectly attributed to Martin due to the bevelled tone holes. For instance, there's a soprano on JunkDude's site stencilled "J.H. Troup" that he calls a Martin stencil, but it is obviously not made by Martin. Is this a Couturier stencil?

https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=151
 
#5 ·
You've just added a valuable info to the topic 'Couturier stencils', as this soprano saxophone is indeed made by the E.A.Couturier Band Instrument Company, which can be proven by several features. I plan to talk about details in a separate 'Couturier stencil thread'.

I hope there will be an own title for 'E.A.Couturier' on SOTW as well as for 'Holton'. As Lyon&Healy is the successor of Couturier, it makes sense to combine both in one title: > Other A-M > E.A.Couturier/Lyon&Healy > The Forgotten Manufacturer (e.g.).

Saxophones made for L&H by other companies (e.g. Buescher), like Mr. jazzbug mentioned could be discussed within that category.

I vote that every American manufacturer gets his own title, 'York&Sons' (Michigan), too.
 
#8 ·
Bruce Bailey has two for sale ...
 
#10 ·
Well this is all good. Since Harri himself posted, it appears there may soon be an area to discuss Couturier. Now if I can just learn to spell it correctly.;)

York is another interesting make. I saw a professional alto on eBay a few years ago. Too bad I didn't save the photos.
 
#15 ·
#18 ·
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-York-Al...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:50

I understand York made some saxes, and used various stencils too. Is it possible that this was made Couturier? It has two of the hallmarks that I look for to identify a Cout.: The scalloped G# pinky table key, and the earlobe shaped low C key lever. Other Cout. hallmarks are: linked palm keys , a Mercedes triangle low C keyguard (like Conn), beveled tone holes, and a long 3rd side key.
 
#19 ·
This one is York made. York made saxophones also for other companies, not vice versa.

How to identify a Couturier and/or a Lyon&Healy saxophone stencilled by other companies (some are trademarks, no stencils!) will be examined when we have a 'Couturier stencil thread' (e.g. Couturier did not use Mercedes triangle low C keygards and the Mercedes triangle low C keygards on L&H saxophones are different from those Conn made).
 
#20 ·
I have seen Buescher stencils marked "York". These look like early 1920s. The later 20s Yorks were of their own design and a C melody I restored was a very strong player. The York-built saxophones had the tonehole stacks in one long pre-built strip which was the aligned and soldered over the body, matching the holes in the body. This was quite unusual for its day and a large amount of metal went into the horn. York (like Holton) never seemed to promote their saxophones at the professional level and although they play very well, the Yorks are at the bottom of the EBay prices. Maybe we could have a York thread. The York C melody I had featured a small bore like a Buescher, with quite a projection. There is a well-researched website on Yorks and they deserve some discussion.
 
#21 ·
Here is a beauty of a Lyon&Healy Couturier, with just one great foto: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280351415366&fromMakeTrack=true

The seller thinks it's a Martin because of the beveled tone holes, which is understandable given the Forgotten status of Couturier. He says the gold plate was covered with lacquer, originally, except for the masked off bell engraving area. I asked for more fotos. I wish it was a C melody.
 
#24 ·
#26 ·
"On this sax, note the Martin style bevelled toneholes and bow protector -

PLUS the Conn style 'mercedes' Low-C guard, and the curved 'Conn' neck brace...."


A closer look shows that

1. the bevelled toneholes are not 'Martin style' and
2. the low C guard is not Conn style

I will explain the subtle differences in an according thread 'How to identify a 'Couturier' Saxophone (better: a LaPorte made saxophone).
 
#25 ·
I think many listings assume the wide soldered tone holes make it a Martin. I find the Courturiers to be darker sounding than the Martins. The IBIco stencils are a lot more Martinlike. The low C key cage on the Courturiers is quite similar to the Conns and the soprano thumb ring is very Conn/Martinish. Someone needs to buy those 2 altos I have. No time to redo!
 
#27 ·
#29 ·
This has the features of a Couturier. Didn't Lyon & Healy use the name American Professional? These two Couturiers are just about the same:
Right. Lyon&Healy used the term 'American Professional' as trademark. The 'Couturier Model' and the 'American Professional' of the same period of time (1924/1925) are virtually the same. More details will follow when new titles are created on SOTW.

Felix
 
#34 ·
Alright, I just calipered the interior of neck reciever and got .987" or 25.07mm. ... It would involve me ordering them and trying them, and Thats a little much hassle, especially since the horn isn't working yet.
Ask him: Mr. cmelodysax. He can tell you exactly what works and what doesn't. My experience with alto saxophones: Only Couturier/Lyon&Healy (and stenclis) tenons of the necks fit the socket of the body. It can't be replaced by any other maker. The position of the upper octave key tonehole differs, too.

Felix
 
#33 ·
Alright, I just calipered the interior of neck reciever and got .987" or 25.07mm. Anyone know off hand if thats a close measurement to any neck sizes? I've contacted steve before (before I knew the model) and he said it was probably buescher and he didn't have anything. Should I re-email him now that I know more about it?

And Bruce, I wish I could try out some c-mel necks and such, but its hard for me here. There are few music shops, and they only really carry standard model saxophones, SATB. I have yet to find anyone locally who even knows about a c-mel saxophone. It would involve me ordering them and trying them, and Thats a little much hassle, especially since the horn isn't working yet.
 
#36 ·
I just measured a Conn at 24.79mm and a Buescher series II at 23.88 so they won't work. I think that the Aquilasax one is your best bet but L&H altos are a lot bigger than most too. Maybe you should just buy another horn as the new neck, repairs, etc will eat you up. I sell C Melodies for $350 in fair playing condition with all the original stuff and a really nice one with new pads usually runs about $650 shipped. Ebay is still a good place to find cheapies so keep watching.
 
#37 ·
Well the point of this horn is to completely fix it up myself. I was hoping I might be able to play it after a while. I'll see what I can find. I got this horn for 20 dollars :).

Some of my measurements were a little weird, as it varied between 24.8mm to 25.07mm. I think that is roughly accurate and maybe worth a try :). I'll have to look at some of them.

I'll also email aquilasax again. I hope I can find one without having to buy a new horn, because then I'll probably be stealing a neck from a better looking horn and No one wants to do that :D!
 
#38 ·
Here are a few photos of a restored Lyon and Healy American Professional bass sax. I never could find a solid answer as to who actually put it together and when or where it was made or the resto done. I've never seen another like it. It seemed to have a collection of different manufacturers parts, keys, guards, braces, ferrules etc.. I would be curious to find out more about this maker. Looking foward to your thread.
 
#42 ·
Exactly like Mr. jazzbug said. This bass saxophone is made by Buescher around or prior to 1920. The serial number would tell the year of manufacture.
 
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