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The Forgotten American Manufacturer

54K views 157 replies 25 participants last post by  ZootTheSim 
#1 ·
E.A. Couturier was a gorgeous cornet player and a respected manufacturer of brass (conical bore patent).

The fact that he was a manufacturer of fine saxophones, too, is not well known.

Is anybody interested in info/discussion about

history
series
technical details
stencilling companies
serial numbers/years of manufacturing
patent info
advertisement
sound
etc.?

Please let me know.

Felix
 
#134 ·
Couturier - Sequences of the Company History

1. Couturier Band Instrument Company LaPorte IND
President: Ernst Albert Couturier
2. Receivership / Takeover
3. Lyon&Healy / Couturier Band Instrument Company
4. Lyon Healy Plant LaPorte; previously Couturier
5. Takeover by Holton

2. Receivership / Takeover

October 1923 - April 1924
'Lyon&Healy American Professional'; 'Inspiration'
SN ca 11,000 - 13,000 *

The takeover of the Couturier Band Instrument Company by Lyon & Healy was first mentioned as being completed March 1, 1924:

 
#135 ·
Couturier - Sequences of the Company History

1. Couturier Band Instrument Company LaPorte IND
President: Ernst Albert Couturier
2. Receivership / Takeover
3. Lyon&Healy / Couturier Band Instrument Company
4. Lyon Healy Plant LaPorte; previously Couturier
5. Takeover by Holton

3. Lyon & Healy / Couturier Band Instrument Company

Couturier Model
SN ca. 13,xxx - 16,xxx

Since April 1924 the Couturier Band Instrument Company was part of Lyon & Healy Company, Chicago.

 
#137 ·
#138 ·
#139 ·
I am interested in building a 3D model of the A.E Couturier Music Factory in LaPorte, IN. As a residence of LaPorte, IN I was drawn to this building when a retired coworker gave me a 1984 calender from The LaPorte Savings Bank that had many sketches of historic Laporte, IN buildings. The A.E Couturier Music Factory was one of the buildings included, although presented as the Palace Garage in the sketch. My initial intent was to draft the building in pencil, but now I'm interested in evaluating the details and proportions of the building better before drawing it. I will accomplish this through Google Sketch-up. I have photos depicting two elevations of the building, but I am lacking legible pictures of the medallions on the front and the information on the other two sides. If you have any detailed photos, blueprints or sketches of the building elevations/details, please let me know. Thanks!
 
#142 ·
This is a very interesting project, DrawDawg. Please, let me come back on your request. I will think about what I may be able to contribute to it.
 
#141 ·
Hi paulwl,

I remember some of your fine contributions here on SOTW and I learned a lot studying them.

Please allow me not to coincide with your conclusion.



Here is a functional link: https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=1808

Junkdude says: ... "Bell reads, 'Made by Couturier LaPorte Ind.' ... "



Could this be a fraudulent falsification?

If you compare a Couturier alto with a Martin 'handcraft' alto - both instruments holding in your hands - accurately side by side, you will figure out:

There are similiarities but Couturier and Martin saxophones are essentially different.

"I recommend not to rely on one feature alone as there are similiarities which can be found on saxophones of different manufacturers as well as differences which easily could be changed e.g. keyguards. Note that there are some positive related features but also features which exclude a LaPorte origin.

And of course there are features that can be identified on good photos but there are some - and that are the most reliable - which requires the real object of examination e.g. measurements of the body!

All LaPorte made saxophones
...

3. have thick simple bevelled toneholes (handcrafted, therefore slightly varying in shape) soldered onto the body. I call them „LaPorte Type" as most saxophones made since 1922 equipped with this type of bevelled toneholes were produced in LaPorte. Saxophones produced at the same time (twenties) by Martin have thick bevelled toneholes, too. But unlike those made in Laporte they have usually an inward sloping rim.

What makes things more complicated: Martin saxophones made between 1918 and ca.1921 and some stencils are lacking this feature, they look like the LaPorte type ones! So not all saxophones with 'LaPorte Type' toneholes are made in LaPorte! Vice versa: Saxophones with toneholes other than 'LaPorte Type' are not made in LaPorte.

4. have serial numbers in the range of 6,xxx and 19,xxx as well as 200,xxx and 203,xxx (except Holton Collegiate I which are not considered here). Possibly there are very rare exceptions. Still researching.

5. All numbers are written in a straight line e.g. with an „A" above for alto saxophone and an „L" beneath for „Low Pitch". There never can be found the term „LOW PITCH" like stamped on Martin made saxophones. Since 1926 (1925 on the 'Perfect Curved Soprano') "PAT APPLD FOR" was supplemented.

6. LaPorte made saxophone bodies are larger bored than any other contemporary make. Trying (e.g.) to fix a martin neck on a LaPorte saxophone, you will be very surprised how much the difference in diameter is!

7. LaPorte made saxophone bodies (comparing examinations on numerous alto saxophones) are longer than any other make. Accordingly their necks are shorter (otherwise they would have a pitch which is much too low). ... ." #68; The Forgotten American Manufacturer

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-10-1018-42-40.jpg

The saxophones made by Couturier is a historically and physically evidenced fact.
A Martin made Couturier saxophone does not exist.

Is there a connecting link between the two companies?

Yes, there is: William J. Gronert

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?146663-William-J.-Gronert
 
#144 ·
"One feature alone..."

...in the case of that horn of Junkdude's, might include "keywork" - even if you go by several features of the keys.

That is what fooled me: every touch looks like a Martin touch. But as you point out, no way is this a Martin body. The bore is huge, the body longer, and the bell set close-in to the stacks. Some, probably all, key cups are also bigger, as you might expect from a bigger bore.



Is it possible that Couturier made the bodies - then Martin made keys to C's spec?

As a brass maker, C would have been "bore conscious" - in fact it would have been their best chance at differentiation in the sax market. I know they made some saxes "from the ground up" - those Lyon & Healy half-curved sopranos - but for a less specialized horn such as altos, it might have made sense to contract out for keywork.

In short - not all Martin, but definitely part Martin.
 
#145 ·
Re: "One feature alone..."

Thank you, paulwl for your accurate analysis and illustrative representation of the bodies.

"... one feature alone..." is part of my post #68, not exactly the answer to your contribution. I should have dropped it.

No doubt, the Couturier saxophone was entirely made in the factory in LaPorte IND. "... We have the only standardized saxophone key system in the world. ..." Couturier Co. 1923.

Nevertheless the keywork design of Martin and Couturier saxophones arises from the same source. I plan to take up this point in a separate article.
 
#147 ·
I agree. I will not be the buyer as I am happy with my Couturier
alto which is my main playing instrument.
 
#150 · (Edited)
I am so glad I found this thread! It persuaded me to buy a soprano saxophone today for $50 at the pawn shop. There was a sticker on it that said it would make a cool lamp. :cry: Blasphemy.

All of the keys function, it isn't bent. It does, however, need cleaned and re-corked. There are zero dings in it and the mouthpiece and caps are in the case. On the bell it says: Made by Couturier LaPorte IMD and the serial number on the side is 10476. It does not have a neck as you can tell in the picture, it's just a solid piece.

I haven't gone through the whole thread yet (I'm working on that right now), but I got overly excited and had to ask about it. I am curious if anyone would know more by the photo and the serial number? I can't find anything on it anywhere else. Then again, I'm relatively new to the world of woodwinds as I started out in strings. Thanks!
 

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#151 · (Edited)
You got that for $50?
Where's that pawn shop at? ;)
It does have a neck, just it's part of the body.
(that is very cheap for that though, and I couldn't stand that being a lamp.)
Any more pictures you can take?

Wait Wait Wait, that has 4 Palm keys.
Anyone know what that extra is? It looks like either another vent for palm E or a high F#, depending on which one is extra.
 
#153 ·
In a town called Lewiston in Idaho, so needless to say I was pretty shocked. I know of only a handful of people still in the area that even play soprano sax.
I know, I know, I just meant it was all one piece. :lol:
(I'm betting they had zero clue what it was. I would have died a little if someone had done that to it.)
More pictures? Absolutely! :D I apologize up front for the quality of a couple of them. The lighting in my room is terrible. :(

Yes, four palm keys. o_O
 

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#154 ·
Can you take a picture of both the right hand palm keys and the area where all the palm keys vent head-on?
I want to (attempt to) see what that fourth one is for.
Thanks for showing us this, by the way, it's very interesting.
How's it play?
I'd imagine very well, as Laporte would vouch for.
(and unfortunately I can't yet.)
 
#155 · (Edited)
Musical instrument Brass instrument Wind instrument Handle Sleeve
Musical instrument Leg Dress Brass instrument Human body
Musical instrument Brass instrument Wind instrument Finger Woodwind instrument
Musical instrument Wind instrument Brass instrument Finger Woodwind instrument
Musical instrument Brass instrument Wood Wind instrument Woodwind instrument


Is this how you mean? I also took a shot of each key being held down. Let me know if you need more. :)
No problem! Thank you guys for starting this thread or I never would have bought it.
Without a choice reed and with needing a few stops and a cork it still plays really smooth and nice. Easier I dare say than the new alto sax I owned for awhile, and a sax/clarinet tutor in a jazz band loved it so I guess that's saying quite a lot. It's a sweet instrument, which makes the lamp comment that much more painful. :Rant: I don't know enough yet to say much more. Yet.
Someday you'll be able to! ;) I'll cross my fingers for pawnshops near you. And thank you Mr. LaPorte for all of your research. I wouldn't have had a clue without it! :)
 
#156 ·
Low Pitch Bb which is good. Those palm keys are D, Eb, E and F. The E is inline with the others rather than on the left side like most. Very unusual. Those are the old white pads and may be just fine. You did QUITE well on this one, I hope it is good as my two I sold for well over $1,000 in nice shape from the later "clown face" era.
 
#157 ·
Thank you so much!! I was running through the keys in my head based on my old alto sax and that does make sense. It's going to take a few days to get used to having the E in a different spot though. Yes, most of the pads are white, only a few have been replaced and all of them seem to be in pretty good condition. I am also quite pleased that there doesn't seem to be any leaks anywhere. As I said, the only thing that desperately needs replaced is the cork, which I have a few, and at least one of the stops. There is a large chunk missing from one. Otherwise, all it needs is cleaned. Whether I will sell it or not, I'm not sure yet, but I am quite happy that I rescued it and very excited! :D I never expected $50 to turn in to a possible $950+ profit. :confused: Then again, I didn't expect the sound I got out of it without doing anything to it yet either considering the pawn shop either. :mrgreen:
 
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