I was happy that I ran across this thread, just today I brought home a Couturier soprano that has the serial number of 104XX. Looking at the pictures of it before taking the plunge I also made the amateur mistake of assuming it was a Martin, but when I was picking it up I realized it was a different beast...thus inspiring a search which led me here! Mine is in extremely sad shape with dents and two missing keys, but I'm optimistic that it will be brought back to life. It's fun to get a new sax that inspires you to do a little research.
I have a very nicely engraved alto that I haven't yet restored, it's a beauty. I guess I'll have a look and post info for you guys. The horn looks very "high end"
"High end". Yes; it's definately a Couturier!
I'll give away how to play the top tones - after you will have it properly restored. Mr. Jazzbug will be the judge.
I like a lot the Coutorier story and now I now there is another gret vintange horn.
I surfed internet ad sow this: https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=1808
Now I thimkthat this sax is not a stencil but a genuine Couturier.
Am I Right ?
President E. A. Couturier Tells of Remarkable
Precision Necessary in Making Conical Bore
Brass Instruments—Production Growing
LA PORTE, IND., March 1.—"One one-thousandth
of an inch is a mile at the Couturier plant,"
stated E. A. Couturier, president of the E. A.
Couturier Band Instrument Co., to a representa-
tive of The Review, in describing some of the
new machinery he has just installed for per-
fecting the conical bore that is the patented
feature of the Couturier instruments. In ex-
plaining his remark, Mr. Couturier took the
writer through the factory, demonstrating the
wonderful new machinery which draws out the
brass to delicately small fractions of an inch.
The utmost care is used by trained workmen
to see that each instrument is perfect before it
is sent to the finishing department. ...
"The conical bore method is the logical way
of producing the proper tone effect from a
brass instrument. Having studied the scien-
tific construction of band instruments for a
great many years I have applied to the con-
struction of Couturier instruments the theory
that a sound wave expands as it travels. This
is an absolute physical fact. It is based on a
law in physics and the principle is strictly ad-
hered to in the manufacture of every instru-
ment that goes out from this factory."
Comparing both pictures you will notice that the garages passed from sight completely. 'PALACE GARAGE' was replaced by 'E. A. Couturier Co. Ltd / Band Instrument MFR'. Apparently the whole building belonged to the Couturier Band Instrument Company then, not only the upper floor.
Considering the extension of the subject I decided to open a new thread on the model history of the Couturier saxophone soon. 'The Forgotten American Manufacturer' will be continued for general company history, questions, answers and discussion .. .
Hello Mr. LaPorte, thank you for your effort.
I have this 'American Artist' alto that was sold to me as Martin stencil couple years ago but then I found a few threads mentioning Couturier and one of them suggested that American Artist was a Couturier horn.
In your post listing distinctive Couturier features you mentioned many but could you also say that most of the Couturier horns had round post base plates, mercedes-type low C keyguard, horizontal slot under the neck tightening screw, long low C-key.
Hello Mr. LaPorte, thank you for your effort.
I have this 'American Artist' alto that was sold to me as Martin stencil couple years ago but then I found a few threads mentioning Couturier and one of them suggested that American Artist was a Couturier horn.
In your post listing distinctive Couturier features you mentioned many but could you also say that most of the Couturier horns had round post base plates, mercedes-type low C keyguard, horizontal slot under the neck tightening screw, long low C-key.
I've not included the features you've listed above as the single feature tells little about the origin. But in this particular combination it is found only on Lyon&Healy (Couturier) saxophones since 1926 (except the horizontal slot which is probably put on later). Note the L-shaped C#/G#-key which is exclusively found on L&H saxophones between 1926 and 1929. If you like to know the year of manufacture please tell me the SN.
Would you please do me a favour and take a photo from the front engraving, especially from the flower if existing, as I'm examining special details?
Thanks.
Unfortunately I don't have the saxophone at hand so I cannot look up the serial number though as far as I remember it's in 20xxxx up range.
Luckily I have the front engraving picture.
So do I then have the Lyon&Healy Couturier that is the one made after L&H had purchased Couturier? It's all a little complicated.
Regarding the horizontal slot under the tightening screw: I have a 'Supertone' alto that's in the same serial number range as this Am. Artist (sorry couldn't resist buying it, it was a bargain) and it's almost a clone of American Artist (or vice versa) and it has the same slot in the same place. Looks like factory made.
In addition (or, boy) I have a Holton Collegiate alto that's another clone of the previous two but without a slot. I didn't really buy them all intentionally as I wanted to have a Martin stencil and a genuine Holton and as a result I have this bunch of these clones
All three alto saxophones are 'Couturier' saxophones as they are designed by E.A. Couturier 1922. They were built by the E A Couturier Band Instrument Company, since 1924 under the leadership of Lyon&Healy, 1928-29/30 made by Holton in Elkhorn. Your's are made between 1926 and 1930. The exact SN's would tell it more precisely.
After receivership Oct.9 1923 the factory was under threat of closure. 1924 Lyon&Healy decided to purchase the company and production was continued until 1928, when the equipment was sold to Holton. New reliable sources indicate, that the LaPorte factory was closed 1928, then Couturier saxophone production continued in Elkhorn both as 'COLLEGIATE'-Holton and 'Lyon&Healy' until 1929/30.
Don't worry, these altos are of premium quality, imo much better than the Martin 'handcraft' at that time although that was a good one, too.
I will tell the details in this thread and the 'The Couturier Saxophone' thread, soon to be started.
I also think they exaggerated in that picture of the factory (post #105). Compare the aerial view to the photo. The aerial is done by a draftsman who made the structure appear larger than it really was.
This is very curious stuff. Changes our perspctive on the history of early american manufacturers and my personal sax history as well. I owned a C melody marked American Professional that I always assumed was a martin stencil. now you say American Professional was a line of Courturier? It is a bit confusing. Are you saying that Courturier made their own saxes in their plant until they were bought by Lyon and Healy? Did they not buy stencils from other manufacturers prior to this date? If the Conn made tenor shown earlier is from 1916 then it must have been stencilled for Courturier by Conn. I have seen these come up on Ebay many, many times and dismissed them as Martin stencils. If they were manufactured by Courturier in their own plant that is very interesting history.
I believe there are American Professionals by Lyon&Healy that were made by others, like Beuscher. If it's a real Couturier, whether labeled so or not, it was made in LaPorte, Indiana at that factory, and is not a Martin. Confusion occurs when you see the "Mercedes" triangle guard on the low C key, which makes most people proclaim, "Conn!" when it may be Couturier. It's the beveled tone holes that give it away. Other identification cues are the scalloped G# key, and a sometimes articulated D-E-F palm keys that lift and hold each other open going up the scale (easier to understand if you see a picture). Your C Melody was probably a Couturier
My C melody, as I recall had soldered tone holes bevelled at a sharp 45 degree angle at the top. They were missing that typical martin style scooped bevel. It did not have the Mercedes style keyguard. Does this mean that martin never used a mercedes style keyguard contrary to what has been believed in the past? Keep in mind that Conn also built horns early on with soldered tone holes and a Mercedes keyguard. I own a Conn labelled C melody like this.
Since Conn, Martin, and possibly Buescher all used soldered tone holes and Conn and Martin (at least from what we thought in the past) used a Mercedes style keyguard, What are the designating factors that would verify a horn as a Courturier and not possibly just a stencil from Conn, Buescher, or Martin.
"Imminently playable, with a stately and solid voice. ... Perfect intonation, and something incredibly lush and complex in terms of timbre. Absolutely playable in a modern context."
Enjoy the pictures of a great instrument. Sorry, no saxophone!
The photos of the factory are fascinating. I find myself trying to figure out what each man is doing. The courtier cornet on eBay is so beautiful. It shows the amazing quality of work this company was able to produce.
The fact that Harri has granted Couturier/L&H its own sub-forum speaks volumes for the importance of the research you have done, Felix. I, for one, am greatly impressed by the depth of your research, as well as intrigued by the information.
Please, do keep it coming!
Sax Magic
1. Couturier Band Instrument Company LaPorte IND
President: Ernst Albert Couturier
2. Receivership / Takeover
3. Lyon&Healy / Couturier Band Instrument Company
4. Lyon Healy Plant LaPorte; previously Couturier
5. Takeover by Holton
2. Receivership / Takeover
October 1923 - April 1924
'Lyon&Healy American Professional'; 'Inspiration'
SN ca 11,000 - 13,000 *
On Oct. 4, 1923 the Couturier Co. received an order to devote their entire sax production to Lyon and Healy. Unfortunately on that same day, they were forced into receivership. (Steve Mumford)
Short after the factory was closed for several weeks.
The history will be continued soon. Thank you for your patience.
:walk:
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