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The Forgotten American Manufacturer

54K views 157 replies 25 participants last post by  ZootTheSim 
#1 ·
E.A. Couturier was a gorgeous cornet player and a respected manufacturer of brass (conical bore patent).

The fact that he was a manufacturer of fine saxophones, too, is not well known.

Is anybody interested in info/discussion about

history
series
technical details
stencilling companies
serial numbers/years of manufacturing
patent info
advertisement
sound
etc.?

Please let me know.

Felix
 
#41 ·
Thanks Jaye When I got the horn it had already been relaquered but it would not play. I disassembled it and replaced poor fitting pads etc. and adjusted it to top playing condition. It sounded and played great. I sold it on ebay the buyer was very happy with it and the price he paid. I guess at the time there was some ebay scam involving bass saxes. Unfortunately for me he was the only bidder. Plus I think it being a Lyon & Healy and not to much info on this model might have made some think twice. --- As for Obrador it was a originally a 7 piece ( piano, bass, drums, guitar, percussion, and two horns ) jazz/ latin/ funky original music workshop based in Olympia, Washington started in 1976 that lasted until 2006. The band became an 8 piece adding another percussionist who could sing sometimes later sported a 4 piece horn section making it a 10 piece. It played throughout the northwest at various clubs and festivals. It played a lot of benefit events for organizations such as Greenpeace and the Crabshell alliance. The group opened for Charles Mingus once and for a group composed of Eddie Gomez, John Abercrombie,Lester Bowie and, Jack Dejohnette, also opened for duo of Don Cherry and Colin Walcott. I was a one of the original members but I left the group in 1983 and moved south. The band had a few records and recordings the first called 'More Odd Jobs" featured local saxophone legend Bert Wilson. The band also traveled and played in Cuba as part of a cultural exchange during the Clinton Administration. They formed the Guanabacoa Project which was a project of buying and collecting donated musical instruments and donating them to schools in the town of Guanabacoa in Cuba. I got to travel to Guanabacoa to repair musical instruments with two other techs for a week as a part of this project. It was one of the most rewarding and memorable experiences of my life. Most of the members still live in the Olympia area and play locally. Is this the same Obrador you had in mind.
 
#40 ·
Lyon and Healy bought stencils from Buescher and Buescher was a prominent (along with Conn) maker of bass saxes, so without seeing details, that's my guess.
 
#43 ·
Actually, Max...I was thinkin' of Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador~ the progressive presidential candidate in the last Mexican elections who was the frontrunner throughout the entire campaign and who apparently had won on election day, only to have the presidency handed over by the country's supereme court to the ruling conservative party's candidate....(look at where the country is now, btw...)

I like your Obrador story much, much better...your's is life-affirming....

That's cool that you do that....the Cuba trips and stuff....

Regardless of it being a Buescher or otherwise...that's a cool looking horn...nice job on the fix-up.
 
#44 ·
Thanks Jaye for the kind words. Obrador in Spanish means worker or workshop and obra can mean a work ,construction, theatre play, or musical composition. It was exactly what we were all about. A labor of love so to speak. As a person of Mexican heritage I was curious about Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador and his chances of winning. Interesting how what happened with their election sounds so familiar to what happened here not so long ago.
 
#46 ·
I got a hold of steve over at Aquilasax. I was told that my measurements were very close to some of his necks, so this could be good! He didn't tell me which model of neck to get or anything, so I'm still a little bit lost, but I have plenty of time to wait while I'm trying to fix up this saxophone. Thanks for all the tips guys, and I hope the horn plays well when and if I can get her running :).
 
#48 ·
I was told that my measurements were very close to some of his necks, so this could be good! He didn't tell me which model of neck to get or anything, so I'm still a little bit lost, but I have plenty of time to wait while I'm trying to fix up this saxophone. Thanks for all the tips guys, and I hope the horn plays well when and if I can get her running :).
I will try and look after possible candidates for your C melody. Which SN is stamped on?
 
#49 · (Edited)
My surprise! I found this lil' stinker L&H in my closet, ser# 122516, (pics attached below, if it works). I bought it about a year ago, thinking it was a Martin. The pads are ancient white, the tarnish mostly black, some tiny dings, and it's pretty unplayable with so many leaks. It is identical (slight engraving variation) to this one that just sold for $168.:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120430351282 (ser#16711)

And this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270404910921 (ser#13524)

The factory of Couturier/LaPorte must have been commonly making horns with these features between ser #s 12516 and 16711
 
#56 ·
The factory of Couturier/LaPorte must have been commonly making horns with these features between ser #s 12516 and 16711
I'll come back to that topic. Very good photos!

Felix
 
#53 ·
Pretty much BUT I have seen L&H saxes made by King. Just thought I should clutter things up even more. One horn we haven't talked about is that L&H soprano that looks like a saxello. I have heard they are not too good. Google Lyon & Healy saxophones and there is a site that has a catalog printed online with all the finishes, text, drawings, etc.
 
#55 ·
Pretty much BUT I have seen L&H saxes made by King. Just thought I should clutter things up even more. One horn we haven't talked about is that L&H soprano that looks like a saxello. ...
... "The Perfect Curved Soprano". There are some more horns we haven't talked about. I'll wait until Harri Rautiainen has decided on the structure.

Felix
 
#58 ·
#61 ·
#63 ·
The history of saxophone production by E.A. Couturier will be continued very likely in October. Thank you for your patience.:)

Felix
 
#64 ·
Thank you, Mr. LaPorte for all your work. It is deeply appreciated. I have played vintage horns for 40 years, but never heard of a Couturier until your valued contributions. I have since restored a C melody and an alto. Both were very impressive horns. I see Lyon and Healy C melodys finally fetching good EBay prices, perhaps due to this thread.
 
#65 ·
Circumstances are forcing me to cut back my activities at present.
 
#67 ·
Circumstances are forcing me to cut back my activities at present.

"Why is it that, train as we may for breath control, and practice as we will for technical perfection, we .. must remain at the mercy of an imperfect instrument?" (E.A.Couturier)
I hope you are in good health. That is a very interesting quote from Mr Couturier.
 
#68 · (Edited)
On request I bring forward following matter:

How to identify a LaPorte made saxophone.

All following statements are based on my own examinations and researches.

I recommend not to rely on one feature alone as there are similiarities which can be found on saxophones of different manufacturers as well as differences which easily could be changed e.g. keyguards. Note that there are some positive related features but also features which exclude a LaPorte origin.

And of course there are features that can be identified on good photos but there are some - and that are the most reliable - which requires the real object of examination e.g. measurements of the body!

All LaPorte made saxophones

1. have split bell keys except straight sopranos.

2. are lacking front F.

3. have thick simple bevelled toneholes (handcrafted, therefore slightly varying in shape) soldered onto the body. I call them „LaPorte Type" as most saxophones made since 1922 equipped with this type of bevelled toneholes were produced in LaPorte. Saxophones produced at the same time (twenties) by Martin have thick bevelled toneholes, too. But unlike those made in Laporte they have usually an inward sloping rim.

What makes things more complicated: Martin saxophones made between 1918 and ca.1921 and some stencils are lacking this feature, they look like the LaPorte type ones! So not all saxophones with 'LaPorte Type' toneholes are made in LaPorte! Vice versa: Saxophones with toneholes other than 'LaPorte Type' are not made in LaPorte.

4. have serial numbers in the range of 6,xxx and 19,xxx as well as 200,xxx and 203,xxx (except Holton Collegiate I which are not considered here). Possibly there are very rare exceptions. Still researching.

5. All numbers are written in a straight line e.g. with an „A" above for alto saxophone and an „L" beneath for „Low Pitch". There never can be found the term „LOW PITCH" like stamped on Martin made saxophones. Since 1926 (1925 on the 'Perfect Curved Soprano') "PAT APPLD FOR" was supplemented.

6. LaPorte made saxophone bodies are larger bored than any other contemporary make. Trying (e.g.) to fix a martin neck on a LaPorte saxophone, you will be very surprised how much the difference in diameter is!

7. LaPorte made saxophone bodies (comparing examinations on numerous alto saxophones) are longer than any other make. Accordingly their necks are shorter (otherwise they would have a pitch which is much too low).

There are more indications which I will explain when presenting some info about model history.

Felix
 
#71 ·
I'm really excited to read this thread. I have a true curved soprano by the brand name "Harmony" that I have no idea of its make. It's stamped "low pitch", is made in Elkhart, and has the "scalloped" bevels around each tone hole. The samples that have been displayed within this thread (of various breeds) are the closest I've seen to mine from a conceptual design point of view. I haven't played it much and in fact was once considering turning it into a table lamp. :shock: But I've never had the heart to do so. I'll post a few pics when I can and maybe one of you could confirm the make of this horn.

More to come.
 
#73 ·
#74 ·
Not that I'm an expert, and it is extra hard to identify sopranos, but I see the so-called "Pontiac" ribbed body tube joint bands that suggest Martin. Also, Martin had rather large block capital letters proclaiming "LOW PITCH." Pontiac autos had a wide strip down the center of the hood for decades, up till the mid 50s, similar to those.

minous; I'd really like to find out the actual maker though. Any ideas? [URL="http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150578.jpg" said:
 
#75 ·
... I see the so-called "Pontiac" ribbed body tube joint bands that suggest Martin. Also, Martin had rather large block capital letters proclaiming "LOW PITCH."
I agree.

BTW no regular shaped curved sopranos were built in LaPorte. Only straight ones and the 'Perfect Curved Soprano' (1925/1926) made by Lyon&Healy also sold under the tradename "American Professional".
 
#79 ·
Your Bb sprano is an important piece of saxophone history as it bears one of the highest serial numbers (#10468) stamped on a Couturier (LaPorte) made saxophone engraved:

Made by
Couturier
LaPorte IND​

That means it was made just before the company went into receivership Oct. 1923. Nearly all saxphones produced since then by Couturier were ordered by Lyon&Healy until the Couturier Band Instrument Company was sold to L&H 1924.

Thank you for your input. Nice photos!
 
#80 ·
Starting an own company: The 'E. A. Couturier Co., Ltd.'



soon to be continued ..
 
#81 ·
The photo #80 shows a part of the bell engraving of a tenor saxophone, one of the first bearing the name 'COUTURIER' and the addition 'LTD'. It's a negative, which shows the letters better than the normal view.

Let's have a look at some historical background:

"In 1916, Couturier, Melvin G. Lathrop, and William N. Barlow opened their own business, "E. A. Couturier Co., Ltd.," with the intention of producing their own line of conical bore instruments. Couturier transferred all of his patents from J. W. York & Sons to his new company. According to their catalogue of 1916, his company did produce an entire line of conical bore instruments, including the saxophone. In 1918, the firm moved from New York to LaPorte, Indiana, and was bought by Lyon & Healy in 1923. It operated until 1929." (Richard I. Schwartz, 2001)

The bottom line is well researched. Diggin' deeper we will learn new aspects which makes it nessesary to modify the summary given above.
 
#86 ·
"According to their catalogue of 1916, his company did produce an entire line of conical bore instruments, including the saxophone. ..."


Contrary to that quote above reliable sources verify that Couturier's saxophone production began summer 1922 in LaPorte:

1." ... Couturier began sax production in August 1922. ..." (Saxquest Forum)

2. Lowest serial numbers found on Couturier's saxophones (own make) are around 6,5xx). They never show the "LTD" which disappeared 1921. (Horn-u-Copia).

3. "The recent decision of the E. A. Couturier Band Instrument
Co. to add a line of saxophones has been instrumental in lining up a large number of dealers who were considering the Couturier instruments but needed the saxophones." ( THE MUSIC TRADE REVIEW AUGUST 19, 1922)

So what saxophones may have been shown in the catalogue of 1916?
 
#82 ·
"Couturier wasn't just some random nut. He was an amazing musician who could play things on the cornet that nobody can play today. I'll extend a standing challenge - I have the music! He built a company that produced the full range of brass instruments and also saxophones. All the brass instruments were made on the "conical bore" principal, even the trombone. He had a dream and he made it happen." (Steve Mumford)

For those who like to know some more about the musician and inventor E.A. Couturier:
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/thecornetcompendium/well-known_soloists_co-cz.html
and
http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/Couturier_056/

In the following posts I'm concentrating on the period 1916 until July 1922. The main question will be: Is it correct - as claimed above - that Couturier's saxophone production started 1916?
 
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