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Creston Sonata Orchestra Arrangement

10K views 26 replies 15 participants last post by  LloydMcArton 
#1 ·
An italian pianist recently completed an orchestral arrangement of the Creston Sonata. You can download the parts here: http://www.marcociccone.it/ENG/download.php

It would be great to hear a recording if anyone gets the chance to play this.
 
#3 ·
I'm sure everyone's going to be wild when I post my opinion, but here goes.

Creston's sonata arranged for orchestra??? What could be more ridiculous except possibly when I heard there is an arrangement of Desenclos' Prelude, Cadence, and finale for orchestra, which I can imagine is even more bastardizing.

Creston's sonata is a piece which was made for saxophone and piano. The piano part is equally, if not more difficult than the saxophone part. It was made for the piano. Had creston wanted it as a concerto, I imagine he would have made it that way...in fact he did write a concerto.

Creston was an incredible composer who was no stranger to the different mediums of composition, and one can imagine that if he wrote this for piano, it was because he specifically knew and planned for it to be played and performed that way. In his eyes, that was how the piece was meant to be. Who are we to say that this just wasn't enough? That we need to take a celebrated piece in the repertoire and put our own stamp on it.

And why would you spend your time playing this piece with orchestra when you could play any of the numerous other great pieces for saxophone and orchestra...
 
#4 ·
Creston's sonata is a piece which was made for saxophone and piano. The piano part is equally, if not more difficult than the saxophone part. It was made for the piano. Had creston wanted it as a concerto, I imagine he would have made it that way...in fact he did write a concerto.

Creston was an incredible composer who was no stranger to the different mediums of composition, and one can imagine that if he wrote this for piano, it was because he specifically knew and planned for it to be played and performed that way. In his eyes, that was how the piece was meant to be. Who are we to say that this just wasn't enough? That we need to take a celebrated piece in the repertoire and put our own stamp on it.
With this sort of mindset.... it would basically leave us without being able to play any sort of transcription/arrangement or anything of that sort. I find this very odd coming from a saxophonist since we do a hell of a lot of arranging.... whether or not I agree with this particular arrangement is not the point at all. If someone has the opportunity to play something with orchestra and choose this, well then good for them to have the opportunity to play this.

On another note....... you say why play this piece when there are many good concertos out there?? Well there are many pieces out there which probably shouldn't be played.... so at least this one will get played instead of one of the bad pieces out there.
 
#5 ·
Actually you're quite mistaken. Not ALL saxophonists feel the need to play transcriptions or arrangements as a major portion of their repertoire. To do so indicates an ignorance to the repertoire.

And yes, you're right, I never play transcriptions except in extreme circumstances.

First of all, if you can find an orchestra to play this "arrangement" of creston's sonata, I'm sure you could also convince that orchestra to play a legitimate piece of the repertoire. There are many wonderful concertos out there, and unfortunately as saxophonists we shoot ourselves in the foot by not exploring the richness of our repertoire.
 
#7 ·
Not ALL saxophonists feel the need to play transcriptions or arrangements as a major portion of their repertoire. To do so indicates an ignorance to the repertoire.
I'm sure that you are aware of a significant number of exceptions to this generalization.

Angel
 
#9 ·
Just the fact that Creston wrote for the saxophone shows that he was open minded and not strictly tied to musical tradition. This arrangement has the potential to introduce many new people to the classical saxophone. However, I'd like to hear a recording before I make a firm opinion.
 
#10 ·
+1

It's funny, when you remember that one of the main sax orchestral parts is an orchestral transcription of a piano piece.

I love the orchestration of 'Pictures', but the Stowkovski realizations of Bach organ pieces for orchestra leaves me cold.

Some work, some don't. I want to hear it before I judge.
 
#11 ·
I think Creston was very picky about his music being played by different instruments...IIRC, he was very adamant about the Concerto NOT being performed with a piano accompaniment and that it was for practice only. Now, people do it anyway, but that doesn't mean that it was the composer's intent.

All of that being said, the composer's intent can be overridden by the performer's interpretation, so why not by an arranger? There are some things that shouldn't be done because THEY SOUND BAD, (like arranging say, a violin piece for bagpipes) but that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING has to go by what the composer wanted or by our notions of his/her intent.
 
#12 ·
All of that being said, the composer's intent can be overridden by the performer's interpretation, so why not by an arranger? There are some things that shouldn't be done because THEY SOUND BAD, (like arranging say, a violin piece for bagpipes) but that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING has to go by what the composer wanted or by our notions of his/her intent.
It does though, because of copyright law. Because in popular music and jazz, arrangements - often almost unrelated to the original - are accepted and the norm, it does not mean an arranger can change the work of composers who have strict conditions concerning the way their work is to be performed. Because the Creston arrangement, appears to be published, I assume it is approved by him. However even arranging a copyright work without permission is illegal.

So your statement is wrong, everything has to go by what the composer wanted. Whether you get caught is another thing and at first you will probably just get a cease and desist letter if the copyright holder finds out and is concerned.
 
#14 ·
I was thinking this too, and didn't want to say it. Would it necessarily be up to the publisher of the Sonata to grant permission for another version to be made?

Angel
 
#16 ·
I was thinking in ...Maurice Ravel!
Imagine "Pictures..." without the orchestration! It is still a great piece for piano but thanks to Mr Ravel we have the chance to hear another option for this beautifull piece and even more, to be part of it!
I think we should be more open minded. It is true this could end up as a big fiasco but we should let the people try, just try; something beautiful may come up. If not we just...don't play it!
Just my $0.2
 
#18 ·
There is too much great music out there to dismiss the value of transcriptions. I personally like to champion original works for the saxophone (and also in their original format), but I also welcome interesting projects like this arrangement of the Creston Sonata. I don't know how it will work...it could be very cool, but that will depend on the talent of the arranger. But I am looking forward to hearing it.
 
#24 ·
BTW, there IS a tasteful Woodwind Choir arrangement of the Glazounov Concerto.

In 1998, a private student of mine won the West Point Band's young artist's competition, and performed the Glazounov concerto with the West Point Band (woodwind section). It worked really well! Great contra clarinet and contra bassoon parts! I have a recording if anyone would like to hear it.

The arrangement was written by one of the West Point musicians. They are rather generous in lending out their in-house arrangements, too. All you have to do is ask!
 
#23 ·
My first reaction to something like this is to assume that it was done legally. After all, Marco Ciccone has been published and has a very public website. This doesn't preclude someone to just go ahead and make an arrangement, regardless of the legal ramifications, but that is not the first thing that crosses my mind.

Looking at his website, it appears as if the arrangement is published by Templeton Publishing, which is a division of Shawnee.
 
#26 ·
I think since it appears to be done properly (published by Templeton, div. of Shawnee), maybe we can comment on the actual arrangement since there is now a video for us to see.

My first impression after listening to it, regardless if you agree with the issue of arranging a sonata for orchestra in the first place, is that it works as a version with orchestra. The video has poor sound and it is difficult to hear all the colors properly, and the orchestra seems to be struggling through much of the performance, but this could work in this medium.

The actual orchestration, unfortunately, is not what I would call mature writing. I think a lot of the character of the sonata, which could easily be captured with an orchestration, is lost or changed. This may be an issue with Ciccone not being properly familiar with the performance practice of the piano version, however. For instance, the third movement loses much of the "gaeity" quality and is quite heavy and too dramatic.

Another issue, though this is subjective on my part, is that I feel that the melody is too often passed between different instruments when the direction of the line does not support that type of color change. At the beginning of the second movement the melody is passed from the oboe to the clarinet, and then I think the horn. My thoughts about the beginning of the second movement is that the character has a distant, lonely feel to it and would work better with more of a monotonous timbre. I would probably have the entire beginning section with just strings, with maybe some woodwinds as part of the supporting figures. I would save some of the color from the orchestra until after the saxophone enters. If the saxophone is the first entrance of a melodic wind voice, then to me it helps to draw attention to the "lonely, distant" quality as if the saxophone is crying out all alone.

I really like some of the percussion, particularly the orchestral bells in the second movement, though I though they should have been used more sparingly.

Overall, though I do have issues with some of the orchestration, I do think this sonata can work very well as a "concerto". I wasn't sure at first how the type of melodic writing in the sonata would work with the larger medium, but this could be an exciting piece with orchestra.
 
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