Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go - Page 16

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  1. #301
    SOTW Pragmatist cpete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Gentlemen, It is with much interest that I slogged through this pedantic and headache inducing thread.

    I have now determined that I can go down to Home Depot, get some metal tape, cut little discs and cover up about 3/4 or more of the old (but totally serviceable) plain leather pads on my good old Martin stencil and get the high end to project a little better like it does on my King, which has resonators, and without affecting intonation.

    This is what all 700+ post boil down to.

    You guys sure went through a lot, glad no one was seriously injured.

    Does anyone disagree with my assessment?
    Thanks, Pete

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  3. #302
    Michael's Avatar
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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Could we have some pics of the resonators?
    The cure to procrastination is the realization that procrastination in its essense is the failure in understanding that the work you are doing is to your own benefit, not the benefit of others.

  4. #303
    Distinguished SOTW Member Mal 2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    I think one answer has been overlooked -- racetrack pads. That is, discs with rings of pad around the outside and solid material inside. Instead of putting metal over a pad, why not limit the pad surface to what it needs to seal? Another option would seem to be that used on flutes. Put screw mounts in the center of every pad cup so the resonators are part of the instrument, not part of the consumables. In slightly different form these are Buescher Snap-In pads, but I fear the snap-in principle may not be compatible with incredibly thin metal discs.
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  5. #304
    SOTW Pragmatist cpete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal 2 View Post
    I think one answer has been overlooked -- racetrack pads. That is, discs with rings of pad around the outside and solid material inside. Instead of putting metal over a pad, why not limit the pad surface to what it needs to seal? Another option would seem to be that used on flutes. Put screw mounts in the center of every pad cup so the resonators are part of the instrument, not part of the consumables. In slightly different form these are Buescher Snap-In pads, but I fear the snap-in principle may not be compatible with incredibly thin metal discs.
    Mal, unless you change the design of the cups, that would change the volume of the cone, and SCREW intonation, unfortunately.

  6. #305

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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Jeez! I missed this thread!

    Toby and I went at this privately for some time, and finally, he conceded that his main argument - that mode locking would pull any misaligned resonances inline, and, la, dee, da, - was, "very wrong". He still doesn't think thick resonators will do what I accuse them of, but, now he has no ammunition. Ha, ha, ha.

    Here's the latest: Anywhere there is a compression anti-node, where apposing waves' pressure nodes collide, there is a lot of transverse (sideways) motion in the tube. Here's a demo:

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../kundtosc.html

    Any variation in bore diameter, even inside the tone hole, will affect the alignment of that resonance.

    In other areas, where there is acoustic flow, the flow will enter a closed tone hole chimney, to 10% of the tone hole's diameter. So with a 20mm diameter tone hole, the flow will enter the chimney as far as 2mm. The tone hole chimneys on my Martin are 2.5mm high, at the center of the tube. Maestro resonators are 2mm thick (Noyeks are only around 1mm thick). That means, that with 2mm thick resonators on my pads, the resonator will alter the acoustic flow, and any resonance with a displacement anti-node there, at any tone hole over 5mm in diameter, and, the larger the tone hole, the more the effect. That's every tone hole on any alto, tenor, or bari sax, and most tone holes on a soprano.

    Clearly then, thick resonators will alter the sound and response of your horn, besides giving you more sound by virtue of the large surface area. Just what that change will be, and how much, is difficult to say. It will vary from horn to horn. I think we could safely say, that if you really love the inherent sound of your horn, it would not be wise to install thick resonators as an over-sized resonator choice. Oversized thin resonators would be more neutral, tonally.

  7. #306
    Distinguished SOTW Member Mal 2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMods View Post
    Clearly then, thick resonators will alter the sound and response of your horn, besides giving you more sound by virtue of the large surface area. Just what that change will be, and how much, is difficult to say. It will vary from horn to horn. I think we could safely say, that if you really love the inherent sound of your horn, it would not be wise to install thick resonators as an over-sized resonator choice. Oversized thin resonators would be more neutral, tonally.
    In theory, wouldn't the ideal resonator be the one that takes up the ENTIRE tone hole chimney and restores the conical bore? Naturally this is not achievable, but wouldn't returning the cone to as perfect a state as possible be best?

    I have wondered how much different the instrument would sound if every tone hole and pad was replaced by an aperture iris? Let's assume that they can seal perfectly and repeatably.
    SAX ENSEMBLES (quartet, trio, sextet, and more): Bandcamp (streaming), or Downloadable (MP3 and PDF).

  8. #307

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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    An iris would be really cool - and you could control the speed of opening and closing.

  9. #308
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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Weren't the old (1920 era) pads a lot softer and thicker then modern pads? If so how much difference would a thinner pad combined with a typical modern resonator make in contrast to the original pad? Have you put to gether a drawing along with measurements?

  10. #309
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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal 2 View Post
    In theory, wouldn't the ideal resonator be the one that takes up the ENTIRE tone hole chimney and restores the conical bore? Naturally this is not achievable, but wouldn't returning the cone to as perfect a state as possible be best?

    I have wondered how much different the instrument would sound if every tone hole and pad was replaced by an aperture iris? Let's assume that they can seal perfectly and repeatably.
    in theory the sax would be an ideal cone. But in practice it isn't. In practice the tone holes, their diameter and the hight of their chimneys and any additional effects such as beveled, rounded or straight rims were taken into consideration when designing the particular model of sax.

    You also have to wonder, the level of precision in making a sax and its tone holes. How much this would dominate in comparison to just the amount a pad descends into the chimney when closed?

  11. #310

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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    I wasn't around in the 20's so I don't know if the pads were that way to start with, or if they got fat and saggy due to age. The older (1910-1920) horns I've worked on, have all improved with a firmer pad and thin resonator, IMO. They look like this - pretty much like a normal flat reso. - but they are lighter.


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    Default Re: Melting Down My Noyek Resonators - Paper Thin Oversized Is The Way To Go

    Quote Originally Posted by cpete View Post
    Gentlemen, It is with much interest that I slogged through this pedantic and headache inducing thread.

    This is what all 700+ post boil down to.

    You guys sure went through a lot, glad no one was seriously injured.

    Does anyone disagree with my assessment?
    Thanks, Pete
    i dont agree. i enjoyed each and every post and it got me to thinking, so i discovered the beer can solution to putting an oversized resonator on my horn without a full repad and i enjoyed the way it played i started thinking some more. i invented the 110% resonator for the top 5 keys and found that the horn is more alive than it ever was. i havent started putting them on the stacks because of timing issues, but i might put them on some other keys that dont have timing considerations. oversized resonators made my horn more enjoyable to play and ive gotten compliments on my tone as a result.
    thanks martin mods
    jon

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    Default

    Sorry for the resurectioning(!) but dies anyone know how OP went about making his $20 resonators, please..?

  14. #313

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    B U M P!!

    Again,Sorry for the resurectioning(!) but does anyone know how to go about making these $20 resonators, please..?


    I've PMed the OP but no joy as yet

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