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Muramatsu V Yamaha

34K views 75 replies 26 participants last post by  turf3 
#1 ·
I can buy a used Muramatsu for around $2K or a new Yamaha for around $1400. Both are silver head, body and foot. Closed hole, offset G. Assuming the Muramatsu is in good shape, is it likely to be worth the extra cash? I've been playing for a year on a Gemeinhardt with their new H1 head and making good progress. I'm 68 years old and unlikely to ever buy another flute. For those of you that may think old muscles cannot develop a good embouchure I'm here to say it can be done. I stop practicing after about 30 minutes and take a break to rest my mouth. Obviously I'll never have the endurance of a younger person but I'm surprised at how quickly I'm getting better.
phil
 
#37 ·
I'm not much of a flute player but I think I surprised a fellow sax player, who happens to be a very good doubler, with my cheap Jupiter closed hole flute. I could play twice as loud as him and I know he dropped 4 or 5 grand on a flute. As far as better intonation, he had me beat.
I've found as far as student flutes, Jupiter and surprisingly, Buffet, are both better than the Yamaha.
Muramatsu probably owes a bit to Galway for their popularity. That video of him playing a bunch of different flutes really shows what a great sound he gets out of them.
 
#39 ·
A few years back I bought a deMedici alto flute, straight head. I have played a number of altos since then, but none are superior; perhaps if I played the alto as my main axe and spent the time becoming exceptional at it, my experience would differ
 
#42 ·
Are you talking about new or used? I'm assuming new. The Yamaha 312 is a silver plated body with solid silver CY headjoint. I think the 312 is assembled in Indonesia. The Muramatsu equivalent is the EXiii. Solid silver head, plated body. Made in Japan. The Muramatsu is much more expensive (3 - 4 times?), but in my opinion a much better flute. But the dilemma is, if your daughter continues with the flute, she will probably want to/need to upgrade again, maybe to inline g/b foot, maybe to something else entirely. So to answer your question, I think the Muramatsu is the better choice of the two, all things being equal. I hope this helps a little.
 
#43 ·
But the dilemma is, if your daughter continues with the flute, she will probably want to/need to upgrade again, maybe to inline g/b foot...
<groan> An in-line G is a choice, not an upgrade. There are similar arguments to be made regarding the low B foot.

Many people prefer the ergonomics of the offset G - even those of us with larger hands. It is no reflection on the quality of the instrument. In fact, I have six flutes with offset Gs, four by Lehner, Bailey, and Opperman; two by DiMedici. None of them are "beginner" flutes.

Sheesh, six flutes? But they take up so little room... I really didn't realize that I had that many 'til I stopped just now to count. Two are alto flutes, but still... I need to stop hoarding. :cry:

FS Lehner C flute: https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?229535-FS-John-Lehner-flute&p=3258169#post3258169

FS DiMedici alto flute: https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?294154-FS-DiMedici-alto-flute&highlight=dimedici
 
#44 ·
Here's my take on it, for what it's worth:

1) OFFSET G is a far better choice both ergonomically and mechanically. It has no effect on sound. After decades of being bound to the in-line configuration which was originally chosen for reasons of manufacturing cost, the prejudice against offset G is declining. I would not recommend anyone except experienced players who want a specific instrument for its particular characteristics buy an inline G flute. Definitely not a high school player.

2) Low C or B is largely irrelevant by itself, but in better grade flutes in the US, the low B instruments are more likely to be in stock. Personally I prefer the low C as I think the third octave responds better.

3) Open or closed holes is a long standing argument. Personally I believe most flute players are better served with a closed hole instrument, but the prejudice is so strong that you probably ought to get open hole. Anyway, open holes can always be plugged. I very seriously doubt that tone hole location is selected especially for open vs. closed holes except on the most expensive flutes. I play an open hole instrument with the holes plugged.

4) I have not seen evidence, either in my own playing or in any kind of testing I've read about, that a solid silver tube makes any difference compared to a silver plated tube, but most manufacturers reserve the solid silver for the better grades of instrument that have more quality control and plated for the lower grades of instrument. This is not always so; when I bought my Miyazawa, they claimed that their plated instruments had the same type and degree of hand work as the solid silver ones just above; so I bought the plated body.

5) Further to the above, many manufacturers offer a choice of head joints, but usually only in the solid silver heads, which will drive you to the solid silver heads if you want a choice.

6) I personally believe plated keywork is a better choice than solid silver, as the nickel silver base metal is stronger, harder, and more wear resistant than sterling silver. However, again, what the manufacturer decides they will use will drive you one way or the other.

7) I am not a big fan of the split E but some people swear by it. It does prohibit one particular trill, which I can't remember, because I don't have a split E. The "donut" insert is a reasonable alternative.

As to brands, I would strongly recommend demo-ing the following, comparing flutes of similar price:

Yamaha
Miyazawa
Muramatsu
Sankyo
Powell sonare or whatever the current "low-end" Powell is called

Some of the flute makers change model names/numbers as often as you change your socks, so I have no idea about these specifics.

Depending on your budget, some of these brands might drop off the list.

Yamaha makes very good flutes even in the student range. Personally, though, at the "high student/low professional" range, I preferred Muramatsu, Miyazawa, and Sankyo over the Yamaha (all of them at the same price). But not by all that much.

I don't know anything about Pearl but I note that the specialist flute stores don't seem to carry them that often. I would not consider anything from Gemeinhardt, Armstrong, Artley, Selmer at this point in history. Some people really like the Haynes Commercial which is available used at quite reasonable prices; others don't. But visually it does not look like a high grade flute, and it's closed hole, so if you show up with one of these while everyone else in the school band has an open hole B foot Yamaha with pointy keys, there may be an issue.
 
#45 ·
Here's my take on it, for what it's worth:

1) Inline G is a far better choice both ergonomically and mechanically. ....
Didn't you mean "Off-set G is a far better choice both ergonomically and mechanically."

BTW my split E does not preclude any trill in the first 3 octaves. Nobody writes a trill in the 4th octave.
 
#50 ·
Hello everyone. I did not mean to reopen the offset g/inline g debate. In my post, I was making an observation, granted, in not a clear fashion, that at some schools, as well as due to peer or teacher 'pressure', in line g flutes are seen as being the 'professional' style of instrument. Which may be a consideration if the poster spends a fair bit of money right now on a new flute. Personally, I play offset g, no split e. Which is merely a personal preference, nothing more.
 
#51 ·
Thanks for all your inputs to my question. What I have in mind are brand new Yamaha and Muramatsu flutes. I inquired from Tom Lee in Hong Kong and I was told that the current price of a YFL 312 is HK$ 5,500.00 which is within my budget. As I am willing to spend US$ 1,500.00 for this project, I thought I should have more options.
 
#52 ·
Aside from specifications, which I think we have covered pretty thoroughly, I urge you again to consider other makes besides just Yamaha and Muramatsu. I would urge you, if the budget permits, to add Miyazawa, Sankyo, and the Powell "student" lines. It appears that you may not be based in the US, by your reference to Hong Kong. In that case, I don't know which brands are available where. I know that Miyazawa and Sankyo are made in Japan thus I would expect them to be available in Asia.

Your daughter after 5 years of playing will be able to discern the subtle differences among the flutes I've listed, and may find she prefers one of them more than Yamaha. But, the Yamaha flutes are also very good instruments and you won't go wrong if you decide on one of them.

When I went looking for a new flute some years ago, I started with Yamaha and they were head and shoulders above what I had been playing, but when I played the whole group of brands, I found that for me I personally preferred Miyazawa and Sankyo over the Yamaha; and after a very difficult decision I ended up with Miyazawa.
 
#53 ·
If you are buying one of the various cheap-line, top-brand-name flutes, i.e. most likely a somewhat classy head on a Chinese body, then I suggest you take a few keys off and check the tone holes. If the roll has been obviously filed flat then you could be in for a heap of unreliability; the issue could be disatrous if a solution is attempted. I have met this with Sankyo designed Azumi, and Powell's Sonare.
You cannot see this without taking keys off.
 
#54 ·
Which seems to lead us with even more emphasis back to makes of known high quality control: Yamaha, Miyazawa, Muramatsu, Sankyo are the main names that come to my mind. I am not sure whether any of these offer a flute at the $US 1500 level except Yamaha. It also begs the question of whether a $1500 Yamaha would be functionally better than what she's playing now. If she is currently playing a $800 Yamaha, you may not really find a big functional upgrade. If she is playing a "mystery" $200 flute, it would definitely be an upgrade. If the body of the current flute is a high quality but modestly priced body (for example, a silver plated closed hole Yamaha student flute) and it's in good condition, there may be a lot more value for money by keeping the same body and just buying a new (or high quality used) head joint. I think the head joint you can get for $1500 is a lot better than the head joint that will come on a $1500 flute; and the head joint is the main contributor to sound. Assuming, that is, that the current flute is a quality instrument of modest specifications and price, rather than an el cheapo piece of junk.

I don't know the flute market the way Gordon does so maybe he can provide more specific comments.
 
#56 ·
I don't know enough about the Di Medici C flutes to answer this, really. I have a Di Medici alto that is very good.

I think you would be able to see the gold riser if you had a strong light and looked down in the space between the embouchure plate and the tube. Remember, though, that one of the colors silver can take on as it tarnishes is a yellowish color that could easily be mistaken for gold, especially down in a crack as described.
 
#57 ·
Thanks again for all the very informative comments. I live in Manila where, except for the cheap Chinese made flutes, our choice is limited. We are not used to buying on line so the alternative is to go to Hong Kong and buy from Tom Lee. She has narrowed down her choice to any of the following: Yamaha (Series 300-400) Miyazawa, Azumi and Pearl which from the information we got from the internet, have models which will fit our budget.
 
#60 ·
Is that another, more recent, popular professional-style head, like the "EC"? (I have a poor memory for model names of anything)

(The "solid silver" is pretty much irrelevant. It just enables marketing hype.)
 
#64 ·
I'd agree on the Di Zhao, they make some pretty good flutes. Know a few pros who use them for outdoor gigs, and honestly love them. I'd also take a look at Resonas by Burkart. Pearls have been good to me over the years as well (have a 665 that I've been playing on for the last 12 years with an upgraded headjoint as my backup flute). And as everyone has said the Yamaha line and the Muramatsus are always great reliable choices. I would comment that the Sonare line should be avoided, their quality is way off. They have had to change where they manufacture many times over the years, with a few being good, but most of the sites being just terrible. You may get a good one, and you may get a clunker, it can be hard to tell unless you bring a qualified flute specialist with you. I've personally tried some good Amadeus flutes by Haynes, but fear that they may suffer the same reliability issues as the Sonares.
 
#65 ·
Can anyone help me determine the age of a Muramatsu flute with serial #071**? Is $1700 a competitive price (it has a c-foot and closed holes)?

I read that pre-1981 Muramatsus have a different scale. Is that true, what does this mean in a practical sense, and what should I look for when I go play test this thing? Please forgive my ignorance of the subject.
 
#66 ·
It is almost certainly pre-1981. Have come across a couple not too much lower than that from the '60s and '70s, so I would guess it's a late '60s early '70s flute. However, the only way to be sure is to reach out to Muramatsu America and ask about it.

As for what to look for, it will be the same with all flutes. Bring a tuner, check the scale. Because older flutes used a lower pitch scale and just chopped the headjoints, long tube and short tube notes (think D vs C) are particularly out of tune. Then check the overtone series against the correctly fingered notes to ensure that the flute is in tune with itself so to speak. Finally, because it is old look at the condition of the mechanism and pads. Make sure everything seals well, that you can get all notes out, particularly the lowest notes, and that the keywork moves as it should. If you don't feel that you are super strong in knowing what you are looking for, ask a flutist to come along and try it out with you.
 
#70 ·
Thanks you all for the insight. Can anyone explain the look of the headjoint to me? What's with the "ring" of unfinished silver, and maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, but is the end of the headjoint thicker than the rest?

View attachment 188690
That looks like a protective sleeve over the end of the head joint.
 
#71 ·
If it is a protective sleeve then it will pull off. If not, then it is a non-original head that has been modified to fit the flute.

These days flutes do not need protective sleeves. The protective sleeve on wooden flutes was to stop the cork grease making a mess of the case lining.
For metal heads it is very rare for a maker to provide a protective sleeve, and usually only for Chinese flutes, where it is perhaps seen as desirable bling that perhaps helps talk a buyer into buying it!
 
#72 ·
Very interesting, thank you. I'm going to play it in a few weeks and see if it's a removable sleeve (never heard of such a thing, but I'm new to flute!) or a modified head. Going to try Gordon's "flick test" too :)

If it's not original but still plays well, I suppose that gives me some leverage to negotiate the price down.
 
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