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Muramatsu V Yamaha

34K views 75 replies 26 participants last post by  turf3 
#1 ·
I can buy a used Muramatsu for around $2K or a new Yamaha for around $1400. Both are silver head, body and foot. Closed hole, offset G. Assuming the Muramatsu is in good shape, is it likely to be worth the extra cash? I've been playing for a year on a Gemeinhardt with their new H1 head and making good progress. I'm 68 years old and unlikely to ever buy another flute. For those of you that may think old muscles cannot develop a good embouchure I'm here to say it can be done. I stop practicing after about 30 minutes and take a break to rest my mouth. Obviously I'll never have the endurance of a younger person but I'm surprised at how quickly I'm getting better.
phil
 
#3 ·
The Muramatsu for 2K is a pretty good deal, and is a much better flute for the price. You will definitely have to get use to the headjoint on it though.

A new Yamaha for $1400 dollars is not worth it unless you are talking a 500 Series(these usually run closer to $1800 to $2200 USD) Anything like a 200, 300, 400 series is not worth it.

Phineas
 
#7 ·
+1 on the muramatsu
 
#8 ·
Which model Yamaha?
Which model Muramatsu?
How old?
I find the current Muramatsu fantastic, and the Yamaha pro EC head is great also.
But my older, top silver model Muramatsu has a head that I regard as pathetic by today's standards. I'd probably prefer a current student Yamaha head.
 
#16 ·
Muramatsu V Yamaha - What about Muramatsu M-150/M-180?



Could anyone please shed some more light on the M-180? The arthritis in my left thumb seems to be abating (well, at least the pain is less) and I'd like to revisit the flute. I've seen some M-150 and M-180 from Japan on the 'bay, and am wondering whether these are recent production or if they are all 30+ years old with an archaic head design.
 
#12 ·
Well, then it's settled, wot? ;)

Muramatsu.
 
#13 ·
Based on the models i would lean towards the murumatsu for you...

but i ended up going with my yamaha 764 over a murumatsu flute a few years ago....play both and then make your choice but based on model numbers i think you'll enjoy the murumatsu the most. (unless the yamaha is a 600+ series)
 
#17 ·
I have an older Muramatsu - top of the silver range - hand made - very expensive in its day.
It's head plays barely better than a student Yamaha. I think heads have progressed hugely since then.
So my word of caution, don't assume that an older flute has a head to match a present-day reputation earned from an improved head.
 
#18 ·
Thank you, Gordon. That is what I was anticipating, but I appreciate hearing it nonetheless.

Regards,

George
 
#19 ·
As Gordon mentioned, head design has changed more than anything flute related in the pas 100 years. Almost any quality student flute has a better head design than a 50 year old pro model. Not that some older flutes are bad, just outdated. I have flutes come in for repair that amaze me at how well they play. Even some of those cheapo Asian flute for $100 have decent heads.....not great but decent.
 
#22 ·
This is one of the many things that puzzle me about flutes. People seem willing to pay large amounts for a head, but once an improved head design has been found, why shouldn't it be copied by just about anyone? Why pay so much for hand cut heads? Why can't modern measurement and manufacturing techniques make cheap copies of any good-sounding head?
 
#20 ·
And another unfortunate thing is that heads are often not labelled with a model.
So when buying second hand - or even new! - you have no idea whether they have been switched.

I once borrowed several pro model flutes from the local Yamaha importer, fro evaluation. They retrieved them from other trial and supplied them to me.
I became convinced that a previous "trialer" had switched heads. It would be so easy to do, and finish up buying a pro head on a cheaper flute, for a cheap head price!
Life has taught me that every dirty trick that is possible is being done.
 
#21 ·
Thank you, Bruce and Gordon, for sharing those insights. After the long quest I traveled to find my ultimate tenor(s), it should be no great surprise that finding my ideal flute will be yet another path.

Yes, yes... Just go out and try some instruments. Hah! Were it so simple, I would surely do that.

Looking for the sound of Hubert Laws/Herbie Mann without investing time or money. :twisted: :bluewink:
 
#25 ·
In spite of what Kymarto has written, there are heads for which there is general agreement about how bad they are, and the opposite for other heads.

You'd struggle to find capable players who find a student Gemeinhardt head plays as well as a student Yamaha. If it were not for nationalistic loyalty from buyers, I think Gemeinhardt would have died a long time ago.

The head on my old hand made Haynes was pathetic in what it could do (unless you were a drawing room player) compared with the head on a Muramatsu EX.
And I've already written about my big disappointment with my old Muramatsu head.

So Kymarto and I will have to agree to disagree. Although we agree that the 211 and 311 Yamahas sound the same irrespective of the silver head on the 311.

BTW I don't think a decibel test is valid unless it is showing relative decibels for all the harmonics, which give tone.

But yes, a good player, especially a versatile player, will have their characteristic sound on most heads. And to counter that, there is a local player whose unique, "liquid" tone amazes me. When I finally got to work on his flute, I could see why... I could get the same amazing tone from his non-run-of-the-mill pro flute. I can't get that on my own flute, nor any other I have worked on. I've forgotten the brand/model now.

I agree that a very good head should be really easy to copy and accurately mass produce, for perhaps 1/5th what is being charged for them. What a rip-off! I guess there are limitations to how good Yamaha make ther student flute head, but probably only so that their pro heads play with difference that a money-loaded buyer can discern.
 
#26 ·
hello. I am enjoying this interesting conversation. I currently play a Yamaha 221 with an aftermarket solid silver head, a lehner omega. I'm happy enough with this set up as I now just play either duets with my 12 year old son or for my own pleasure. what I'm asking is, how much better (if at all) would the muramatsu silver plated body/keywork etc be compared to the modest Yamaha? thanks.
 
#27 ·
In how the flute performs?
As a wild guess I'd say that providing the flute is appropriately adjusted and leak free, and the head is at least as good as that on a student Yamaha:
- About 80% of how a flute performs depends on the player.
- About another 19% depends on the head.
- And about 1% depends on the rest of the flute.

It so happens that for a highly accomplished player, that 99% is a given, and the other 1% in the body becomes quite an issue.

I, too have a so-called Lehner Omega head. Although it is good, I find it quite disappointing compared with a Powell, a Muramatsu (from an EX flute) and one real Lehner flute I have tried.
 
#28 ·
Gordon, I thought in a previous thread you said that you liked your hand-made Haynes' head, but disliked the head on a heavy wall (commercial) Haynes that you either owned or tried many years later. It is my understanding that the soldered tone hole Haynes were copies of Louis Lot flutes (whether open hole or closed) and the commercial (heavy wall with adjusting screws on the mechanism) were inspired by Boehm and Mendler flutes. I once had the opportunity to play more than 20 closed hole Haynes of both designs from various years (ranging from the two roller 20's design through the 60's, maybe 39xxx serial) and the two models played very differently with the german style being much, much darker sounding. I don't think Haynes was aiming for the same thing with the two models.
 
#30 ·
I liked my hand made, thin-wall (soldered tone hole) "Handmade" Haynes when I was a teenager in the 60s, the flute already being at least a decade old when I bought it form my teacher. When I was 21 it was run over (which started my repair career). Many years later I overhauled a similar model Haynes (thin wall) flute with very similar serial number. Full of anticipation and expectation I test played it and was soundly disappointed (apart for evenness of tone through the range.) I had become used to more modern flutes that had so much more to offer, the Muramatsu EX & GX included. (I also have played a couple of old Louis Lot flutes, and was not overly impressed.)

I have serviced several Haynes of varying wall thickness, and may well well have commented as you suggest. I don't specifically recall though.

Professional flue bodies and keys are so similar that I don't know how you can really say that one is a copy of another, unless you can specify which aspects/parts/finish etc are the copied parts.

Besides, I think a lot of these "copy of" and "clone of" statements are rumour rather than fact.
 
#32 ·
I do like a sharp edge on the business side of the embouchure hole.
It seems to focus the air better.
I had an old Haynes plateau from the 30's.
It was just before I got my open-hole Muramatsu (1977)
The Haynes was easier to play, maybe because it had a noticeably smaller embouchure hole.
The Muramatsu had a "bigger" sound and took more air.
The Altus (open-hole offset G) I got is the easiest flute to play I ever tried.
The funny thing about that is, the embouchure hole edges are rounded all the way around.
It doesn't easily get that almost overblown growl that many classical players have.
The custom Emersom Deford head that I favor now does exactly what I want.
I can do a diminuendo on high F# down to PP and flexibility is great.
 
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