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Baritone playing Tenor music

3K views 15 replies 6 participants last post by  manzosdad 
#1 ·
The other day , while visiting a friend who plays tenor sax, I started to play some songs that were on his music stand using my bari. When my friend started to play along with me the music sounded pretty good. My question is this:
If we are both fingering a concert C, the tenor would produce a concert Bb while my bari would be producing a concert Eb. The Eb would be a 5th below the Bb (I believe). Is this a good method to use for harmonizing the two instruments? In a small six piece band would a bari player transpose all the tenor's music for his horn or would he transpose to produce a sound that is either a 3rd or 5th above or below the tenor? Another way of stating it is ...If I had a song that was written for piano and my friend played it on his tenor while I played it using my baritone sax, would that be one way of harmonizing the two horns???? As you can see, my theory is a little weak.
 
#5 ·
You two are a fifth apart. When a tone is produced there are a whole lot of harmonic partials produced. Fifths are included. There would never be any tension created from this playing. It would all be very consonant and boring. The tension that is produced in music is where the interst is built. Take the blue note in the blues scale as an example. That note is not present in any one of the chords used in a traditional, Jamey Aebersold blues harmony. There are some substitutions that do, but other wise, that note is not present.

When you and your friend play like this, there is zero tension produced. That produces boredom after a while, for the listener and performer. If you were to examine a composed duet you would see that there are places where the two parts may be in unison, a fifth apart, a minor second apart, one player is playing the upper part and then switches to play the lower, et c.

In other words there is rhythmic movement, harmonic movement, tension and relaxation. With the two of you playing, basically, the same part the interest is lessened.

I think you could get away with it on one or two tunes a night, but outside of the practice room, it would not fly for an audience.

Get stronger on your theory and some of the more theoretical reasons for not doing this will be evident.
 
#6 ·
It's "a" method but not always a good one. Let's say a song is in G major and the tenor is playing a held out Concert G (written as an A for him). If you play an A on bari you will be playing a Concert C which would typically be an "avoid" note over a G Major chord. See? This method of harmonizing never takes into account the chord you're playing over and you will run into notes that don't fit. For this example it would be much better to move up or down a step to a chord tone (B or D).

Besides, constantly playing only in Perfect 4th's or 5th's takes on a "chainsaw" quality.

That said, there is a place for it. Cannonball and Nat Adderley would play in 4th's in a number of their arrangements. But I think that was mostly over minor harmony and it was constant over an entire piece.

It's better to play in 3rds and 6ths. That's hard to do over an entire song with just 2 horns but here's what you can do. When sections of the melody are made up of 8th notes or quarter notes, play in unison. When you get notes longer than a quarter, split into harmony (focus on chord tones or connecting chord tones).

Since you play bari, listen to what Gerry Mulligan did when he was playing with guys like Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, and Lee Konitz. The Mulligan/Baker quartet didn't have a chordal instrument (like piano or guitar) and Mulligan was great at aiding the listener as to what the harmony was.
 
#7 ·
Thanks for the help. I can now see that the way I was playing would add what you called "avoid notes"...notes that don't really fit. I'll start working on my theory and start listening to how Gerry Mulligan plays.

I also see your point about rhythmic movement, harmonic movement, tension and relaxation. If I can get my hands on some arrangements I would be able to see how the tenor and bari parts are interlaced.
 
#8 ·
Agent Z, I think you are slightly in error.

For Manzosdad, there would be no major chord sustained. In order for there to be a major chord, you need three voices (Root, Major 3, Perfect 5). With just a Tenor and Bari, you only have two (Root, Perfect 5).

Another problem is since the Bari would be sounding lower than the Tenor playing the same written pitch as the Tenor, you would in a sense transpose the piece from a G concert to a C concert. The "avoid" note would not occur. The note the Bari is playing would give the impression of the root or bass line. So now we have the Bari playing a Concert C and the Tenor playing a Concert G above the Bari. They are a fifth apart. The Bari would have to change octave to get the Perfect Fourth above. Unless that happens, they will always be a Perfect Fifth apart. True, it is the listeners' experience and ear that would supply the necessary harmonic constraints to any duet, but here there is no implied harmony.

The two would never be able to use this method with any harmonic support from a non-transposing instrument using the same sheet music. The two do need harmonic support to state the functions and quality of the chords. Perfect Fifths really do not imply any harmonic quality. The Perfect Fifths only eliminate the diminished and augmented qualities. The thirds dictate the major and minor qualities and there is never a third present in this regard.

If I were listening to this, I could stand it for about 15 bars. It would sound like a unison line with a shifting drone. This method is good for an occassional practice session, but that is really it. I also think it would be detrimental to ear training. The two would never hear any shifts in chord quality.
 
#10 ·
Agent Z, I think you are slightly in error.

For Manzosdad, there would be no major chord sustained. In order for there to be a major chord, you need three voices (Root, Major 3, Perfect 5). With just a Tenor and Bari, you only have two (Root, Perfect 5).
Whether or not chordal accompaniment was actively being played, whatever piece they were playing would likely have had an implied or intended harmony. He also referenced potentially using this method in a 6 piece band. All I was saying was that if a bari did nothing but read tenor music as a method of harmonization, that they would inevitably play notes that 1)wouldn't fit with the implied harmony and 2)would grind against the harmony when accompanied by a chordal instrument.

Regardless, even when you know theory well, writing for 2 horns can be tricky. Writing for 3, 4, or 5 horns is actually easier.
 
#9 ·
Yes, you would indeed be playing in 'perfect harmony' but without taking into account any changes needed for the underlying key and chords...

I tried a similar thing (back in the 50's) in the school orchestra, having a limited knowledge of harmonies. My adventurous and impromptu attempt (on clarinet) to play a pure third above the trumpet - in Purcell's Trumpet Voluntary - caused mass hysteria in the 'winds', and a look of sheer and utter disbelief on the conductors face :shock:

We of course 'closed ranks' - and I was never exposed as the culprit... I learnt a valuable lesson about 'harmony' that day, and became a cult hero :D

Ah - memories...
 
#11 ·
Thanks Agent27 and jmathesonjr. Your knowledge of the subject is so far beyond mine that I had to read your comments a few times before I got the drift of what you were saying. The tenor player I was telling you about has a band with drums, keyboard/tenor, bass, guitar and himself also on tenor. He wanted to give me some experience playing bari with his group. Since his book has over one hundred songs in it, I figured it would be easy for me to just play his tenor part on my bari. This would save me the trouble of transposing. Now I see that there is a lot more to it! If I were to transpose some of his songs, should I try using a 3rd instead of a 5th or am I still out in left field on this subject?
 
#12 ·
Constantly using any interval parallel to the main melody is going to encounter the same problems. What you want to do is compliment his melody line while staying within the chord structure. If he's on the 3rd of a chord then you can play the root of that chord. If he's on the 5th then you can be on the 3rd. Etc... These are just examples. But the chords are always changing so you have to be aware of what chord you're playing over and what the chord tones are.

And there's nothing wrong with playing in unison or octaves. I remember when I began listening to Tower of Power. I saw 5 horns and figured they were always in 5 part harmony. My ears we too undeveloped to really know the difference. It wasn't until later that I realized how much they actually played in unison and octaves. They certainly do split in to harmony a lot but they also play a lot of lines in unison.

Bari is a great instrument for playing counter melodies. Like I said, listen to Mulligan and you'll hear him playing backgrounds under the other soloists. Listen to Tower of Power and you'll how much Doc Kupka doesn't play the other horns but how his lines and hits set them up.

You can just play in unisons or octaves AND to break that up, on some songs you can write your own melody beneath the main melody (as long as it doesn't dominate and distract from the real melody). If his melody is active them play longer more lyrical notes. If his melody has long held out notes, make your melody a little more active to counter what his is doing.
 
#13 ·
There are some easier solutions for your dilema. If the bass part is written out and not chordal in nature or of there is a Trombone part, you could play the bass clef line as if it were written in treble clef and add three sharps to the key signature. For example, if the key signature is in G (1#) play it as if it were in E (4#). The bass clef to treble clef results in the note names transposing and the key signature takes care of the rest.

If your major scales are rock solid, then transposing the tenor part on the fly is not that hard. You (the bari part) needs to play the note a fifth above the written one. G becomes D, A becomes E etc. Here you would also need to add one sharp to the key signature. In this case, G becomes D, C becomes G. Does this make sense? If you do this you end up with unison lines. If you shift octaves, then you are playing octaves.

If this is too hard to do on the spot, get a couple of the written charts and download a program like Finale Notepad and transpose them through that. Start simply. Don't go for the fancy re-writing or re-harmonization yet. Also get a hold of some simple duets. The instrumentation is not important. Take a look at the writting these offer. You will see the intervals used through out.

I do not know at what point in life you are at, whether you are still in school or not, but get with someone who knows theory. If you are studying privately, ask your teacher to train you. The more I study music the more I believe in a STRONG theoretical background. You do not have to take it to the extremes of Schenker, but if you did, you would benefit in ways you cannot imagine right now. I know I have.
 
#14 ·
Thanks again for the help. Playing a 5th above shouldn't be that difficult since I know the circle of 5ths. I'll be 65 years old in a few weeks and studied music (tenor sax lessons) for one year just to get the basics. Since then I have been studying on my own using books, CDs and other more experienced players. Since a friend of mine has a six piece band (counting the singer) and is willing to have me sit in with by baritone when the band is practicing, I figured I could learn a great deal this way. The problem is that the band doesn't have written music for me or the time to be giving me lessons. I need to figure things out on my own (with the help of all you wonderful people on this web site). At my age I can spend all the time I want studying and practicing my horn. I may not be good at it, but I sure love playing! If I was a young kid again, I would major in music and make it my livelihood. But you take what God gives you! Thanks guys.
 
#15 ·
My suggestion to you is to check and see if the local community college offers anything in the line of theory or other music related courses. The community college in the area
I moved from allowed retired people to take classes for free. I have a friend who is retired and spends half the year in Arizona and half the year in the area I just moved from. He is taking lessons and theory courses at Arizona State.

If you love doing this, it is not too late to take any of these courses or to seek out private lessons nor is it too late to go back to college and major in music.

I will be 42 years old in a few months and I just graduated with a Master of Music degree from Northern Illinois University. My undergraduate degree was NOT in music. It is in Latin and Classical Greek from Loyola University of Chicago. It took a total of six years to complete the Masters. I had to do some remedial work and I also got my license to teach music in grade K-12 during this time. If I can do it, any one can. Go for it! If you got the time and the desire, nothing can really stop you.
 
#16 ·
I know that it's never too late to learn. I was in college with my son and daughter and graduated at the age of 53. I started saxophone lessons in my 60's. I'll check out the local community colleges and see what they offer. My dream is to play in a jazz band before I hit 75!!

I wish you the best of luck with your K-12 musicians. Remember, If you LOVE what you do you'll never WORK a day in your life!
 
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