Depression

Amy · 11-05-2003, 05:27 PM

A friend and I were talking about a mutual friend who unfortunately suffers from depression. We have nothced that a lot of musicians suffer from this (my friend is a musician). What's ironic is that I would have thought that the enjoyment of playing music would eliminate a lot of bad feelings. It might just be a coincidence........comments, anyone?

**gary** · 11-05-2003, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

I would have thought that the enjoyment of playing music would eliminate a lot of bad feelings.

Maybe it does. Maybe without the music the bad feelings would be badder.

mark_m · 11-05-2003, 08:42 PM

Well, given the economics of being a musician, the lack of support nationally for the arts, and the visibility and wealth of the small number of "successful" musicians, there are ample reasons to be depressed if one was so inclined.

I do find, for myself, music is what keeps me going, happy, sane... the general lack of time for it is my only source of depression.

**Sigmund451** · 11-05-2003, 08:58 PM

Being a therapist I have my own take on this situation. I dont believe that people are depressed because they are musicians...even if there may be reasons. I would rather suggest that many people, given a specific predisposition for a skill engage in that skill as an outlet to help relieve the depression and to help give form and expression to their emotive state. There are many characteristics that depressed people and artists share. One of those key elements is that most are self critical and very demanding of themselves. If this is not kept in resonable check by either type of individual a depressed state will likely find a host. Additionally, as a result of the self critical and at times self loathing attitudes found in depression many artists abandon their craft as it becomes to painful to see themselves constantly fail (from their negativistic perspective).

Help is avaliable and readily so. I suggest your friend seek it. Depression is like the flu of the mental health world. It is highly treatable and the suffering that accompanies it is a largely unnecessary state.

dingfelder · 11-05-2003, 09:04 PM

I believe that depression would cause some to not want to much, including practicing, so in fact it might cause to make you less of a musician over time...

**Sigmund451** · 11-05-2003, 09:16 PM

No, the depressed usually want more than is humanly possible, at least in their specific situation. This leads to feelings of failure which THEN may lead to giving up. Its a complicated process and cycle of self defeating behaviors but it doesnt start with not wanting. It starts with wanting and overly self critical behavior when involved in a process that requires acceptance of process. The decreased motivation occurs later, once the person has beat themself to a pulp.

Andres · 11-05-2003, 09:17 PM

All artists and musicians are supposed to feel tortured and depressed. Can't make art without suffering, and all that BS. Didn't ya get the memo?

I think that playing the music makes one feel better, but these types fall back into Sigmund451's mental "negative mode" and start thinking how horrible their performance was, or start fretting about their spouses, next gig, broken equipement, heroin dealer, or their <insert problem here>.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

larry · 11-05-2003, 09:25 PM

Interesting insights Sigmund - I've often wondered about the relationship between "insanity" and "creativity". If one aspect of being creative is the ability to make mental connections between concepts that the majority of humans don't make - isn't that almost a definition of "not sane"? (i.e. since no dixie players used tritone substitutions, weren't the first bop players outside the standard frame of accepted "sane" musical practices?)

There is lots of anecdotal evidence about the "craziness" of some of the world's most creative minds: VanGogh, Dali, Listz for example. I suppose you can name just as many completely sane artists as well, but they don't get the same press.

One thing that disturbs me is the high rate of drug and alcohol abuse among musicians (as far back as Mozart) but jazz players seem to have taken it to an extreme. Is that a "feature" of the kind of mind that wants to make jazz, or a consequence of the jazz environment?

One last thing? You mentioned that depression is pretty easily treated these days - are most of those treatments pharmacological or are there other approaches for depression?

Thanks,
larry

**Sigmund451** · 11-05-2003, 10:12 PM

Im not sure that Jazz players have taken drugs to any more extreme than some other artists or musicians. I think one thing that may seem to highlight that effect is that there are fewer "Greats" in the Jazz world than there are "Popular" musicians in the pop or rock world. So Im not sure that there is any stronger correlation between the music and the drugs. However, why they go hand in hand...well, they offer a different perspective, a different way of hearing, and at times can lead to an expansion in the where one takes a piece. I am trying to be objective here, Im not condoning sticking yourself with an arm full of heroine but I believe its important to understand it from a neutral perspective. The environment cant be ignored by any means either. I think both lead people into behaviors that have been unfortunate.

As for treatment for depression....Medications have come a long way but depressed people think in depressive patterns. The drugs can make one feel better but unless the depressive cycle of thought and perception are addressed in a therapeutic/cognitive/behavioral manner the positive impact of medicatons can be overcome in short order. This is one problem with primary care physicians perscribing meds and not requiring some form of counseling. They arent happy pills. They do not make the necessity of work a moot point. You still have to learn and most relearn your scales (so to speak). So basically the most effective treatment by far is a mix of quality counseling and medication intervention.

Vortex · 11-11-2003, 09:34 PM

Interesting article here on the thoughts of many of the jazz greats on narcotics in the jazz-musician community.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/baryba...e/playboy1.htm

Minatar12 · 11-14-2003, 07:32 AM

Ah, the cannonball interview. With Ellington and Gillespie too I believe? Great article.

SAXE · 11-15-2003, 03:06 AM

IS DEPRESSION AMONG PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS ANY DIFFERENT THAN IN ANY OTHER PROFESSION? TO ME, PLAYING THE SAX IS RELAXING. YET, MY LIVELIHOOD IS NOT DEPENDENT ON IT. NO PRESSURE, NO STRESS.

**Nefertiti** · 11-15-2003, 03:26 AM

Saxe,
No need to yell is there?

MS · 11-15-2003, 03:41 AM

I believe there may be need.

SAXE · 11-15-2003, 03:49 AM

NEFERTITI, SORRY, I WAS THE YOUNGEST OF ELEVEN CHILDREN. :Rant2:

warmdaddy · 06-20-2004, 02:09 PM

Apropos of discussion on jazz and narcotics. I have an interesting quote which I am sure you have all heard (if you were watching Ken Burns Jazz).

'Jazz was born in a whisky barrell, grew up on marijuana and is about to expire on heroin.'

- Artie Shaw.

Torachan · 06-20-2004, 02:20 PM

For anyone who may be depressed may I suggest "Feeling good. The new mood therapy" by Burns. Really good stuff. Good for dealing with anger as well. Helped me

**Sigmund451** · 06-20-2004, 06:38 PM

I agree Torachan, I do this work professionally and I have a general distaste for self help books as most are touchy-feely warm fuzzys that lead nowhere. However, Burns book is excellent. Its basis rest firmly in proven strategies of cognitive/behavioral therapy. I suggest it to many of my client...especially those who are more dedicated and proactive in treatment.

Vortex · 06-20-2004, 07:29 PM

If you're depressed and need to motivate yourself, I'd recommend finding a song that really touches you on the inside, whether it's Yes' "Soon", Freddie Hubbard's "Polar AC", the Glazunov Concerto, something by The Mercury Program, some Greg Osby, some David Sanborn, whatever give you that warm fuzzy feeling and you really connect with. I've felt this many times and I can tell you life is not complete without it. When you find the right song and hear it in the right conditions, it's more powerful than any substance in the world. Either that or try soloing to something that really has a lot of emotion and drive like Nat Adderley Jr's "I'm On My Way". Connect, feel, and be whole.

Torachan · 06-20-2004, 11:19 PM

Sigmund451 - I am a big fan of Ellis and Becks work. Cognitive Behaviour Therapy is awsome but it's no panacea. I guess it works when people are prepared to do something about their unproductive/ irrational behaviours. If they are happy being unhappy (oxymoron perhaps) then CBT won't be their bag. I am not a fan of anti-depressents as I think that what a lot of people need is some time spent with them by their GP but their GP doesn't have the time or is unprepared to put any effort in it so a prescription is the easiest solution.

Anyone who is depressed...... Basically problems such as depression are caused by the way we interpret things that happen to us rather than the actual thing itself.

Depression is linked to perceived loss. The loss can be financial, a death, relationship break up, loss of enjoyment (example a dancer breaking her ankle so she can't dance for a long time). Loss can also be about not getting what we want or never gettting something back. So the first question to ask yourself is "what's missing?"

In my case University was the source of my depression. I think it had to do with the loss of my free time, the sense of wasting my time (which I'd never get back) and the idea that whilst at uni I wasn't doing what I wanted (studying Nursing but want to be a Paramedic or in Japan)

I hope this helps someone. If it sounds a bit disjointed just skip it.

Best of luck