C13

[paulman]

Why C13 means: C G Bb D E A, and not C E G Bb D F# A ??? Are not the chords proceeding by thirds ??? Thanks. Paolo Mannelli.

[Transcriber-arranger]

You are correct. Chords are built on thirds. I'm not so certain that F# is correct because F# is not in the C scale. F natural? It really doesn't make much difference because the 11th interval is regularly omitted. When looked at this way, C13 is C9 with an added 13th, which is often on top.

[RatBatBlues]

No, Paolo, neither of those are C13. It is C, E, G, Bb, D, F, A.

[paulman]

I think that C13 must be intended as C E G Bb D F# A (becoming this chord from the tone partials) because it resolves down on B and not on F.
When it resolves on F, as Transcriber- Arranger said,(not being F# on the F scale) the eleventh F# is substituted from the tenth E, omitting then the third without doubling that.

[RatBatBlues]

What I spelled is a C13 chord, Paolo. When that chord symbol is written on a chart, those are the notes that are intended. Of course, depending on the context, using a #11 may work, but then it is an altered chord, and not a plain C13.

[paulman]

Thanks for your answer. But why, if you desume the chord by thirds from the major scale, are you using the flatted seventh? C13, if not desumed from the partials of the tone, would be able to be C E G B D F A. Right ?
And that would not to be a dominant seventh chord, as means the symbol.
The solution for me is to desume the chord naming from the tone partials and not from the major scale.

[bdussy]

any time you see a note name followed by 7,9,13 it means dominant seventh. in the case of C13 that means Bb of course. as for the 11th degree you should not include the natural 11th(in this case F) on any major or dominant voicing as it will create a minor 9th interval with the third(E). The #11 is perhaps the most colorful extension and should probably be used with some discretion. so C13 should mean C E G Bb D A

[paulman]

Originally Posted by bdussy

any time you see a note name followed by 7,9,13 it means dominant seventh. in the case of C13 that means Bb of course. as for the 11th degree you should not include the natural 11th(in this case F) on any major or dominant voicing as it will create a minor 9th interval with the third(E). The #11 is perhaps the most colorful extension and should probably be used with some discretion. so C13 should mean C E G Bb D A

>>>Thank you for your answer. Thirds are always major and seventh always minor, if nothing other is specified (as in tone partials and not as in the major scale). In our tertian harmony a seventh includes a triad, a ninth a seventh, an eleventh a ninth, a thirteenth an eleventh, a fifteenth a thirteenth, etc. etc.
That means that must not be harmonic empties on chord construction. Naturally C13 (C E G Bb D F# A) cannot resolve in F, cause the F# not included in F scale, but it resolves very fine in B (chromatic harmony) or in D. For this reason C13 cannot be tought without the eleventh or the tenth (eleventh substitute) when it resolves in F. Ciao. Paolo.

[wersax]

The C13 chord is a dominant chord and is derived from the key of F major; there certainly is an F natural in the scale! The C13 chord itself does not include an F natural. Play it on the piano in a blues and see if it fits. It doesn't! Ask any pro pianist for a couple of C13 voicings and see if there's an F in it. This doesn't mean that you can't play a voicing of a C13 and somehow have an F in it and make it work. Or that you can only play the mixolydian mode in F over a C13. All 12 tones are available to the creative player. Miles could start a blues solo with the leading tone and make it work! What you play over a C13 is a far different consideration than what a C13 arpeggio consists of. There is not an F in a C13 chord!!!

[wersax]

Also, just because harmony is generally based upon thirds, this does not mean that the C13 chord must include the 11th. It doesn't. C13 is defined as consisting of the tones C-E-G-Bb-D-A. It is a garden variety dominant chord (V7) with the added richness of the ninth and M7/m2 dissonance due to the presence of the m7 and M13......also, the 4th scale degree requires special treatment. You can't just use it any old way, because the 4th demands resolution to the third, in a major key. Minor keys are different. If you add the F to a dominat chord, you would have a C11 (C dominant 11th), often referred to as C9sus4 or Bb/C or Gm7/C, favorite chord of so many 70's bands. Like Earth, Wind and Fire, Steely Dan and Weather Report. The reason these definitions matter is because they are used on the job! Read a chart with C13 in it and play an F natural and see what happens! ........

[ZenBen]

C13 does not have to be the V of f major. What if it is the bII7 in B major?

The C13 chord symbol is a little ambiguous(sp?) in regards to the 11th degree. If the composer/ arranger of the tune wants the chord to have a # 11, then I think the chord should be written C13#11. Because the generally accepted 11 on a 7th chord is the #11, I believe that it is a fair assumption to make that the C13 chord has a # 11. If the composer/ arranger wants the C13 chord to have a natural 11, I think that should be indicated (i don't know where the natural sign is on my keyboard, so I can't give you an example).

"Why C13 means: C G Bb D E A, and not C E G Bb D F# A ??? Are not the chords proceeding by thirds ??? Thanks. Paolo Mannelli."

Paolo, I believe what you have written first is a voicing. When you are playing a chord you don't have to play it in thirds. You can play the notes of the chord in any formation of intervals that you think sounds good.

I hope this helps.

[wersax]

C13 doesn't have to be the V of F; it's derived from the key of F! You could justify making a Dom 13 on any scale degree, and certainly the example of the bII is a good one, being the "tri-tone" sub for V. But let's not confuse derivation with use; a chord's derivation and it's text book definition are more or less one-in-the-same.... but that really doesn't speak as to how to or when to use it.....in other words, I'm certainly not chiming in and trying to limit the 13 chord to a V13. I thought a word on it's "roots" would clarify the defintion. I guess my theory teachers always started definitions that way......

[ZenBen]

The point I was trying to make is that even though C13 comes from F major, it is not only used in the key of F. Therefore, as in the sub-V example, we cannot assume the the 11 of the C13 chord is an F and not an F#.

And while I'm being completely nit-picky: to say that you can build a dom 13 chord off every scale degree is not exactly true. Yes, you can build a 13 chord off every scale dregree, but the only ones that are dom. are the ones built off the V and the bII.

One of the great things about theory is that it is 'theory.' It is not fact. It is always in evolution and we will be able to debate it forever (yes, I am a theory nerd ).

[ZenBen]

Oh, after reading your last post more carefully, wersax, maybe you are saying the same thing as me regarding a 13 chord not always being dom.

[wersax]

Exactly ZenBen; I'm happily a theory geek, too!

[Stencilman]

Too much theory for me to swallow. I'll throw in my take as a jazz keyboard player for about 30 years now.

Traditionally, the 11 and #11 just aren't members of a 13 chord. The 5th doesn't add too much color to the voicing and can be omitted if desired. This is all from a chord voicing perspective - the scale notes that are played as a solo or melody can incorporate the 11th or #11 but either of these are generally used as a passing tone.

If the composer/arranger intends for the 11th or #11 to be voiced, he/she would do best to pick another notation besides C13. Personally, I would choose to notate chords that incorporate the 11th or #11th with Bbmaj7/C and C13#11, respectively.

I've seen several arrangers use simplified notation, leaving out extended harmonic notes (the 9th and 13th) even when these are important to the harmonic movement: C7sus, C7(4), C7+4 or C7b5. That drives me crazy.

As a keybordist, when I see a C13 chord, my right hand heads for one of these voicings depending on the chords around it and the note(s) in the melody:

E A Bb D
Bb D E A
A Bb D E
etc.

The choice of the scale played over a 13 chord is up to the soloist. This might incorporate the 11, #11th or both, but generally, the rhythm section folks don't include these notes in the voicing of a 13th chord.

[Stencilman]

Well, after reading the thread again I realize that I missed ZenBen's post above stating the same thing as I just did.

Oh, well, I do happen to be Founding President of the Organization for Superfluous Redundancies and Tautological Pleonasms :-)

[paulman]

[qtote:3f0fe6a0bb="wersax"]The C13 chord is a dominant chord and is derived from the key of F major; there certainly is an F natural in the scale!
The C13 chord itself does not include an F natural.

+++I know that! But there's written C13 and if it's true that in tertian harmony chords are proceeding by thirds an F natural must be included. That's for you. For me that's not true, because I mean that chord naming must be taken off from the tone partials,and then C13 means that it must include an F# eleventh.

Play it on the piano in a blues and see if it fits. It doesn't! Ask any pro pianist for a couple of C13 voicings and see if there's an F in it. This doesn't mean that you can't play a voicing of a C13 and somehow have an F in it and make it work. Or that you can only play the mixolydian mode in F over a C13. All 12 tones are available to the creative player. Miles could start a blues solo with the leading tone and make it work! What you play over a C13 is a far different consideration than what a C13 arpeggio consists of. There is not an F in a C13 chord!!![/quote:3f0fe6a0bb]

[paulman]

Originally Posted by wersax

Also, just because harmony is generally based upon thirds, this does not mean that the C13 chord must include the 11th. It doesn't. C13 is defined as consisting of the tones C-E-G-Bb-D-A.
+++ Theoretically chords cannot have harmonic emptyes. In practice you can do what your feeling decide.

It is a garden variety dominant chord (V7) with the added richness of the ninth and M7/m2 dissonance due to the presence of the m7 and M13......also, the 4th scale degree requires special treatment. You can't just use it any old way, because the 4th demands resolution to the third, in a major key. Minor keys are different. If you add the F to a dominat chord, you would have a C11 (C dominant 11th), often referred to as C9sus4 or Bb/C or Gm7/C, favorite chord of so many 70's bands. Like Earth, Wind and Fire, Steely Dan and Weather Report. The reason these definitions matter is because they are used on the job! Read a chart with C13 in it and play an F natural and see what happens! ........

[paulman]

Originally Posted by ZenBen

C13 does not have to be the V of f major. What if it is the bII7 in B major?

The C13 chord symbol is a little ambiguous(sp?) in regards to the 11th degree. If the composer/ arranger of the tune wants the chord to have a # 11, then I think the chord should be written C13#11. Because the generally accepted 11 on a 7th chord is the #11, I believe that it is a fair assumption to make that the C13 chord has a # 11. If the composer/ arranger wants the C13 chord to have a natural 11, I think that should be indicated (i don't know where the natural sign is on my keyboard, so I can't give you an example).

"Why C13 means: C G Bb D E A, and not C E G Bb D F# A ??? Are not the chords proceeding by thirds ??? Thanks. Paolo Mannelli."

Paolo, I believe what you have written first is a voicing. When you are playing a chord you don't have to play it in thirds. You can play the notes of the chord in any formation of intervals that you think sounds good.

I hope this helps.
+++ I'm thinking it's right what you wrote, if I've good understood. But my interest is more theoretical and regards the chord naming. For ex. C7
means C E G Bb, because this chord is constructed on the fifth of the F major scale. This was able to be understood in a traditional way. But today it is not more comprensible because such chord not more necessarily resolves on F. This chord then must be constructed on C partials without thinking where it is going to resolve.