Composition in the making

1stchair · 02-05-2006, 05:49 PM

I'm currently working on a Saxophone Concert with many movements. Anyone that is interested in the piece please inform me.
The insturmentation is:

Sopranino
Soprano
Alto
Tenor
Bari
Bass Sax
ContraBass sax

The piece is going to have some short and long movments sort of like Carmina Barana(just an example except it will not have 16 movements lol)

Adding on to what I'm doing if anyone here knows of anyone on the forum that has passed away I'm dedicating some movemnts to certain people and to events. The movements will be seperate but connected(hope that came out right).

Don't let this topic die because I will be working on the piece extensively and carefully and will keep this topic up to date.

Riff · 02-05-2006, 07:50 PM

Just out of curiosity, where is one supposed to find players for sopranino, bass and contrabass saxes?

The first rule of composing is to know who you're writing for and what instrumentation is available. You may be reaching to high in this area.

1stchair · 02-05-2006, 10:16 PM

I'm not writing this to be played, I'm writing this to be written. Just because something is written doesn't mean it has to be played. I Have already written the 1st 2 movements for myself.
There are sopranino and contrabass players just not very many. If not writing a piece because the instrument isn't popular then no one would use clavichord's,shashukachi's,celesta's but you hear songs with those instruments. Who cares if the instrumentation is available I'm writing the piece for my own interest and reasons.

**gary** · 02-05-2006, 10:28 PM

Geez, man, you asked for some help and all the cat was doing was trying to share some of his experiences with you. To be honest, that's one of the first questions that popped into my mind but I didn't post at the moment. FYI I worked full time for several years as a composer in residence, and then as a professional arranger/composer. I was thinking of sharing some of my thoughts with you but it that's the kind of response I would also be getting...forget it.

1stchair · 02-05-2006, 11:00 PM

Sorry If I came off harsh. That was not my intention. I was just telling him why I am reaching "high" as he was saying. Reading over my post it seems I did come off dry which really was not my intentions. I'm sorry you feel that way gary it would have been great to get some advice from you.

To you rif, I appreciate the advice you gave me, I was just replying to your post with my reasons not attacking you with words.

Razzy · 02-06-2006, 03:28 AM

I don't see anything wrong with the way 1stchair responded to Riff, who did come off as a little presumptuous to me.

I get the feeling that you're writing this more from an artist's perspective than a working composer/arranger perspective, and taking that into account, I think it's a good idea, what you're doing!

Also, you can find players of those instruments if you look hard enough. More often though you just find a good all around sax player/doubler and hand them a 'nino, bass or contrabass and have them learn to play it.

As a sometimes-composer I find that starting with an idea or a dedication in mind doesn't really work for me. I just have to write what I'm hearing, then figure out what it might be about, later on. This might not be the case for you but at this point, I am not able to think of an idea and write a piece of music to represent that idea. Usually vice versa. I write the tune or the piece, then later I figure out what it sounds like and what it represents to me.

Riff · 02-06-2006, 02:33 PM

1st chair:
If you're writing purely for academic purposes then I guess there's nothing wrong with this as an exercise in theory. I suppose you can hear playback on your computer. My response was not meant to demean, only to inform.

As a composer/arranger I have many opportunities to write music. However, my intent is to have it performed and in that vain one must consider not only the available instrumentation but the players' capabilities as well. I'm sure I would like to hear a saxophone choir such as the one you describe.

If you hope to someday have this piece performed you should know that even most colleges and universities do not have sopranino, bass and contrabass saxes available for use. For that matter, most symphony orchestras don't either. Bass saxes cost nearly $20,000.00. Contra basses over $30,000.00. Institutions just don't invest that kind of money in instruments that are seldom written for, have no one to play them and are even difficult to find reeds for. (FWIW: in my 35+ years as a musician, I've never even seen a sopranino sax; that's how few musicians own one.)

For performance purposes may I suggest:
1. Give the sopranino part to flute. You may need 3 flutists in unison to overcome the saxophone quartet.
2. Give the bass sax part to contra bassoon. Players with these are easier to find.
3. The contra bass sax part would probably have to go to a tuba. Which is not so bad. Tubas blend well with woodwinds.

Quote:

Razzy said:
As a sometimes-composer I find that starting with an idea or a dedication in mind doesn't really work for me. I just have to write what I'm hearing, then figure out what it might be about, later on.

When writing for my own use I follow this same principle, but this is a luxury you don't have when you're commissioned to write a piece. The folks with the money tell you what to write and for whom.

Razzy · 02-06-2006, 03:26 PM

Riff, that's interesting; I've seen two ninos, both of which are owned by a local theater doubler who also happens to be my theory teacher. He owns two because one was stolen out of the pit at an intermission, he then purchased another to finish the run (of whatever show required the horn), then later got his old one back from a pawn shop. But I must admit this is my only 'nino experience. The guy also owns a bass sax and sounds incredible on it. Never seen a contrabass. Also new bass saxophones retail for around 15 thousand, and I've seen them used for 8 to 10. Talking Selmer here, not exactly the cheapie sax brand in town! And I agree with your point about extreme-range saxophone scarcity, but I feel like you're leaning toward "it can't be done" so I should provide my own observations to the contrary.

You're right, I've never been commissioned to write anything. I'm talking about writing my own original music for myself and other musicians to play and at my own leisure.

**gary** · 02-06-2006, 06:23 PM

1stchair - just wondering (for future sharing perhaps) are you using a notation program and, if so, which one?

jabcool52 · 02-06-2006, 06:48 PM

Last year Central Michigan University's music department sponsored a "Saxophone Day," which occurs every other year, I believe, and one of the main attractions was a saxophone choir. We had a band formed of volunteers and had everything from bass saxophone to sopranino. Admittedly, there was only one sopranino and no contrabasses, but at least most of the instruments you would need are there.

Anyway, sounds like a great idea for a piece and I hope you do have the chance to get it performed someday, however unlikely it is.

1stchair · 02-06-2006, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gary

1stchair - just wondering (for future sharing perhaps) are you using a notation program and, if so, which one?

I use Sibelius 2. I've tried using Sibelius 3 but I dont like the format and the setup of it.

I am going to add sub parts for sopranino and contrabass..They can easily be covered by another soprano and bari but I want to right the the series out before I do that.

**gary** · 02-06-2006, 11:57 PM

I use Sibelius 2 also. Anytime you want to send me a Sib file to take a look at or comment on feel free: jazzbeau42@gmail.com

1stchair · 02-24-2006, 05:02 AM

Ok guys here's the 1st movement.

http://www.freewebs.com/grim_clan/Co...ophone%20I.mid

Opinions,suggestions, anything you think you can throw at me go at me feel free to.
For those who would like to see parts, I have them only avaiable in Sibelius 2 format. Once I get to where I have written in bar numbers,more dynamics, director markings etc, I will publish the song on sibeliusmusic.com from there you could view the piece with score.

The ending is still under debate(When I say debtate I mean I'm still thinking of changing something,adding etc.).

Welp,
laters

1stchair · 02-26-2006, 02:22 AM

Come on folks I want some feedback!!!

BariSkaJazz · 02-26-2006, 10:41 PM

i think its cool

pretty hip

Riff · 02-27-2006, 04:20 PM

First let me say that the cheesy computer sounds I get from Real Player make it hard to judge what this really will sound like so remember that as you read on.
I'm a Finale user but I do have Sibelius Scorch installed so I can view scores at the Sibelius web site.
Also, how old are you and have you ever formally studied composition?

I heard some interesting melodic fragments and some interesting harmonies.
I would encourage you to keep working on it.
I'm not sure how the piece fits together though. Usually you want to start with a theme or motif and develop it in some way. This creates unity within the composition and allows the ear to follow your musical thoughts. It's not that different from writing a story. One event leads to another and eventually reaches a conclusion. In the end you usually re-state your theme and finish off with a closing statement of some kind (ie: a coda).

I'd like to hear it at the Sibelius site 'cause I can get better computer sounds there. I know you don't plan on having it performed but I recommend you copy out some parts and get as much of it played as possible for your own information. Quite often when I write something it ends up getting revised after the 1st playing because hearing it live exposes details that you weren't aware of while the piece was being written. Sometimes you find good details that you want to make more out of, sometimes you hear flaws that you need to delete. Composing is definitely a dynamic art form.

1stchair · 02-27-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riff

First let me say that the cheesy computer sounds I get from Real Player make it hard to judge what this really will sound like so remember that as you read on.
I'm a Finale user but I do have Sibelius Scorch installed so I can view scores at the Sibelius web site.
Also, how old are you and have you ever formally studied composition?

I heard some interesting melodic fragments and some interesting harmonies.
I would encourage you to keep working on it.
I'm not sure how the piece fits together though. Usually you want to start with a theme or motif and develop it in some way. This creates unity within the composition and allows the ear to follow your musical thoughts. It's not that different from writing a story. One event leads to another and eventually reaches a conclusion. In the end you usually re-state your theme and finish off with a closing statement of some kind (ie: a coda).

I'd like to hear it at the Sibelius site 'cause I can get better computer sounds there. I know you don't plan on having it performed but I recommend you copy out some parts and get as much of it played as possible for your own information. Quite often when I write something it ends up getting revised after the 1st playing because hearing it live exposes details that you weren't aware of while the piece was being written. Sometimes you find good details that you want to make more out of, sometimes you hear flaws that you need to delete. Composing is definitely a dynamic art form.

One thing I hate about midis is they don't do directors marks..There ARE TONS of director markings..Holding out certain phrases and passages. Also midis do not do gradual cresendos(you know < >) So A lot of the effect of the music I know seems like its leading into something that doesnt fit BUT it would with a slow down and for the ensemble to get REALLY quite for fade out then all of a sudden jump back in with a suprising transition.
Hope this clarifies some stuff.

Im 17(18 thursday), and no I have taken no formal compisition classes, I've been messing around with composing for about 4 years on my own leasure.