Trouble deciphering key

JPSaxMan · 12-24-2005, 05:07 AM

I have the following notes...no questions asked.

Db, C, Cb, Bb, Ab, Gb, F, Eb

What key is this in? Thanx for the help!

**martysax** · 12-24-2005, 05:37 AM

C# (Db) Major with a b7 added, I think. If you didn't throw that Cb, it was a straight C#Maj.

Tully · 12-24-2005, 05:53 AM

That's what I'm thinking, but why would there be both a flat and natural 7th?

JPSaxMan · 12-24-2005, 06:01 PM

Oops, big mistake
There is no C...just Cb.

**martysax** · 12-24-2005, 06:08 PM

C#Mb7!

Tully · 12-24-2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martysax

C#Mb7!

True, those notes would fit the Db7 chord, but so would they fit an Ab-7 chord, so I don't think that's conclusive if you consider the order in which they are written. If you play opposite the written order, i.e. ascending, you get Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, and since the scale with six flats starting on Eb is the Eb (natural) minor scale, it's in Eb minor (or Eb Aeolian, if you prefer).

danarsenault · 12-24-2005, 09:29 PM

What is in the bass?

JL · 12-24-2005, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSaxMan

Oops, big mistake
There is no C...just Cb.

In that case, if it's a major key, the notes fit Gb (F#) major. But of course they also fit all the associated modes. If minor, it's probably Eb minor, since that's the natural minor. Or if it's a modal tune, it could be in Ab minor (dorian). If these are the notes in the first four bars of a blues, it could be in the key of Db (Db7 chord or mixolydian). Without any way to identify the tonic center, you can't say for sure.

Tully · 12-24-2005, 11:51 PM

Could you explain the context of these notes, like what (if anything) is in the bass at this time and if they're played in the order in which you wrote them?

**gary** · 12-25-2005, 12:11 AM

You can't identify a key without knowing the context of the notes in it; either in the context of a longer melodic phrase that might eventually resolve to the tonic or in the context of an underlying or implied harmonic direction.

For example, my first impression is Eb minor. But then, if Eb minor why not Gb major? Or if, as Marty implies, C#Mb7, which I would call a C#7 which might be a dominant of F# in which case you would be in F#, etc.

You can't ask a question like that without providing more information.

**martysax** · 12-25-2005, 03:44 AM

I have a degree in Biology, not music. I have to butt heads against Berklee dudes here in Bahstin all the time. I use my ears more than my head in most cases. I've studied scales and intervals and keys while playing flute, and I've played almost all my sax playing, 99% over the last 20 years, without having to read a note.

In most cases, the guys in the band don't tell me the key to play in, and I like it like that. If the note sounds like it fits, it could also fit somehow in the other 11 keys.

The first time I realized that I was playing in a totally different key than the rest of the band opened up a whole world for me. A world of fewer rules, and freer ideas.

JL · 12-25-2005, 05:02 AM

JPsaxMan, I think the consensus is, you have to give us some more information if you are really trying to find out what key this is. Do you have a recording of the tune in question, or just a random series of notes? If all you have is the later, then a specific key can't be nailed down.

What do you mean by "I have the following notes, no questions asked?" I'm curious now.

hgiles · 12-25-2005, 12:31 PM

I think you're in the key of Gb, and they chord is probably Db7. The scale being played over it is the bebop dominant scale. Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, C (C on the upbeat).

If that C is on the upbeat, it is probably a bebop dominant lick over Db7.

JPSaxMan · 12-25-2005, 06:06 PM

Ok, I will post a recording of what I'm trying to do with these notes soon. These notes, again, are in tenor pitch, which is 2 half steps below concert pitch. I'm using these notes for my version of Silent Night...I'll record it ASAP.

JL · 12-25-2005, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hgiles

I think you're in the key of Gb, and they chord is probably Db7. The scale being played over it is the bebop dominant scale. Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, C (C on the upbeat).

If that C is on the upbeat, it is probably a bebop dominant lick over Db7.

hgiles, that was my first thought, but he later said the C natural is not in there.

hgiles · 12-25-2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JL

hgiles, that was my first thought, but he later said the C natural is not in there.

Without the C natural, the scale is just a Db7 (mixolydian) and the overall key is Gb. Of course, context would help.