Reeds - Yesterday and Today

EllSyd · 02-06-2003, 07:13 AM

Maybe I'm crazy - I probably won't get much arguement on that point, but I'm hoping so of you folks who have been playing sax for 40 years or more can tell me if I'm remembering things right.

It seems to me that back in the 60's when I was learning to play, and then playing in bands quite a bit, you could buy a box of reeds, and count on almost all of them playing pretty well, and fairly consistantly from one reed to another.

These days it seems like most of us have a problem with a large percentage of the reeds we buy not being playable, or wide variation in the repsonse from reed to reed.

So... is it my imagination, or are reeds really not as reliable as they used to be.

saxgourmet · 02-06-2003, 02:03 PM

I've often heard players say the same thing. However, I think I play a little better today than I did 40 years ago, so maybe I'm more able to tell the difference.

02-06-2003, 02:50 PM

I'm sure players of every generation have made the same complaint. In his book, "The Saxophone Is My Voice", Ernest Ferron relates the story of a famous clarinetist compaining of the poor quality of the reeds of the day - somewhere around the year 1810!

I'm also sure that there really are seasonal variations in the cane crop, and that we do go through periods where the quality isn't as good as it was just a few years ago. I suspect the cycles are measured in years, though, and not decades.

Another thing that plays into it is our own changing levels of proficiency as players. This colors our perception of reed quality. For example, I play much harder reeds now than I did 25+ years ago in high school. Does that mean that today's reeds are softer? Or did my chops get stronger? In any event, I know that I wasn't that particular about reeds back then, and probably wouldn't have been able to tell much difference between regular Ricos and Vandoren Traditionals. Today, however, I know what I like in a reed and why.

Anyway, cane reeds are part of the great mystery of the saxophone, and I enjoy a good mystery. That said, I should admit that I have Fibracells in my case, too.

EllSyd · 02-06-2003, 06:23 PM

I kind of suspected the chops might have something to do with it. Mine were certainly much better back in the day than they are now (I'm working on them again).

**retread** · 02-06-2003, 06:43 PM

Reeds are probably like everything else. They don't make 'em like they used to, and never did.

Media Lint · 02-06-2003, 07:08 PM

Maybe I'm just not finicky, or maybe I've been blessed with extreme good fortune, or maybe my choice of reeds (Rico Royals, Daniel's) have better quality control ... but I don't reject many reeds. I always let them break in a bit before I make any decision.

Gregg W. Jackson · 02-06-2003, 07:08 PM

I was playing 40 years ago -- I was 15. I couldn't tell you how many good reeds I got from a box back then, because I could never afford to buy a whole box at one time. I'd buy my reeds one at a time from an open box.

The store clerk would pick over the contents of the open box, pull a reed out, and hold it up to the light to check for visible damage. If the reed passed his scrutiny, he'd hand it across the counter to me for my approval. I'd look at the reed, nod knowingly, and buy it.

In those days, I rarely had more than one or two working reeds at a time. My chops were underdeveloped and my practice habits were nonexistent. Today I can play the same horn and mouthpiece and even the exact same reed today and sound 10 times as good.

Big Nick · 02-06-2003, 08:08 PM

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that reed cane is not aged for as long as it used to be. I suppose if this is true it could account for a variation. A lot of people advocate buying a box of reeds and leaving them for a year or two before playing - it might even them out.
But trying to compare what you felt about reeds 40 years ago with what you feel today is going to be seriously difficult! After 'only' 32 years I can't remember strength, brand or anything about them!

kaypea · 03-11-2003, 04:52 PM

I played in high school in the mid 1960s,then stopped for a long time,then got back into it later in life.I'm now in my mid-fifties and I'm playing gigs now.I know that I'm probably fussier about reeds now than I was when I was a teenager.I"m also a much better player now.But I can also say that I don't ever remember complaining about reeds back then like I can,sometimes do now. I think there is some truth to the fact that they don't let the cane age long enough before picking it.Someone told me that one of the reasons for that is that there are way more people playing saxophone now than there were 40 or 50 years ago and therefore the demand is much greater,therefore the shorter aging time.I still get good ones but it does seem that you have to go through more reeds to find them.

Toni Linder · 03-16-2003, 11:23 AM

[quote="Big Nick"]I vaguely remember reading somewhere that reed cane is not aged for as long as it used to be. I suppose if this is true it could account for a variation."

Not only is reed cane not aged as long as it used to be, reed is probably also grown today using fertilizers that make it grow much faster, with the result that the fibers are less dense than 30 years ago.

richard · 03-18-2003, 04:26 AM

IN THE 60'S I PLAYED ALOT OF ALTO & MY REED OF CHOICE WAS LAVOZ. IN THE 70'S I PLAYED EVEN MORE ALTO AND A LOT OF TENOR. MY REED OF CHOICE..LAVOZ. IN THE MID 70'S TO EARLY 80'S I TRIED EVERY REED THAT THE SAX SHOP IN EVANSTON ILL. HAD AND ANY I STUMBLED ACCROSS WHILE ON THE ROAD...MY FAV. REED OF CHOICE..LAVOZ. 90'S STILL LAVOZ. TODAY PLAYING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN VEGAS AND LA WITH A LITTLE SAN DIEGO THROWEN IN I STILL USE LAVOZ...WHY..ICOULD GET THE COLOR OF SOUND I WANTED THEN AND NOW WITH NO FUSS..NO TIME TO SPEND FIGHTING REEDS!! THEY PLAYED YESTERDAY AND NOW WITH VERY FEW THROWEN OUT OF THE BOX. THE ONLY DIFF. NOW IS I DO THINK THE OLD ONES DID LAST JUST A TAD LONGER. MORAL OF STORY...IF YOUR SET UP WORKS WITH A CERTAIN REED KEEP USING IT..SPEND THE TIME DEVELOPING COLOR IN YOUR SOUND NOT ADJUSTING REEDS..I SEE TO MANY YOUNG PLAYERS SPENDING WAY TO MUCH TIME ADJUSTING REEDS INSTEAD OF WOODSHEDING..I MAY BE WRONG BUT I NEVER PICTURED PARKER WITH A REED KNIFE IN HIS HAND.

paulwl · 03-18-2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

I SEE TO MANY YOUNG PLAYERS SPENDING WAY TO MUCH TIME ADJUSTING REEDS INSTEAD OF WOODSHEDING..

Well, they're taught that reed preparation and adjustment are a "necessary" part of their playing life. Maybe because of the belief that reeds aren't so good nowadays.

Perhaps it would be better if the benefits were emphasized and not the "necessity." A way to refine the kind of really good reed that you discover best by playing.

**Hurling Frootmig** · 04-14-2003, 07:54 PM

I started playing alto around 1977 (fifth grade) and didn't really notice reeds much until High School. I always played Rico 2's or Rico Royal's in 2 during High School. We weren't taught how to adjust a reed or break in a reed or much else. We did however March a lot :-). We played reeds until they wouldn't play anymore. Then we slapped on another one.

In the 90s I learned about adjusting reeds and other assorted tricks.

Now today I find that I am playing stronger reeds than when I was a kid. I'm not sure why this is the case. I have an idea about it though: It seems that Rico orange box reeds have less material in the Heart than they did vintage 1990. I can't tell a difference in Royals and I've only played Hemke's the last 3 to 5 years.

Perhaps having the knowledge of how to make a passable reed better plays into our perception that reeds aren't as good. Odds are that in our younger years we simply hadn't developed the palette and ability to discern minor differences. I distinctly recall my Grandfather complaining about reeds when I was a kid. His only advice was to play Royal's because they were more consistent. From speaking with my aunts and uncles it turns out that he prepared a lot of reeds and pitched a fair amount. I found a couple of his old boxes and was looking through the reeds and at first thought I had found the most consistent box of Rico's of all time. Then I noticed that they had all been doctored. I suspect that it took many boxes to get a fair amount of ready reeds.

alsdiego · 04-16-2003, 10:19 PM

I think a lot of it has to do with increased sophistication that comes with playing experience. Also, the fascination (obsession) with reeds was not always universal (except with clarinet players

) When I was in high school in 1960 my teacher was Charlie Leeds, a legendary teacher in New Jersey. Charlie had played with the Louis Prima big band, and with Woody Herman's Third Herd, so he was obviously a world class player. He was incredibly picky about horns (loved the Mark VI), mouthpieces (Brilhart for alto), even neck straps (Brilhart), but NOT reeds. He never used anything except standard Rico's. He would occasionally "adjust" a reed by trimming it or cutting it down with a single edge razor blade, but his emphasis was clearly not on reeds, fiddling with different mpc's, etc. His philosophy was to have excellent equipment in good adjustment, and then work your a** off!

Rob Fish · 04-17-2003, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurling Frootmig

Now today I find that I am playing stronger reeds than when I was a kid. I'm not sure why this is the case. I have an idea about it though: It seems that Rico orange box reeds have less material in the Heart than they did vintage 1990.

When I set my alto aside sometime around 1980, I also set aside a handful of reeds. I dunno that you can draw any conclusions from this, but I just took a look at a Rico reed from the early 1980's and compared it with a Rico Royal I bought a little while ago. To my out-of-practiced eye, it looks like the heart is more clearly defined on the old reed than it is on the newer one. I dunno about the amount of material, and I don't know if this would be the case if I took the time to compare more of my old reeds with the current ones.

I do know that I've got a handful of reeds that have been aged for at least 20 years, and I'll probably play with them some once I've regained my embouchure and can play well with the Alexander DC Superials I'm currently using. Seems kind of appropriate - an old guy playing an old horn with old reeds. Heck - I even had some 20 year old reed rush.

Rob

MitchP · 04-18-2003, 01:44 AM

Vintage 1990, That cracks me up.
Reeds prior to the early 1980's were better. La Voz was a killer reed until about 1983 or so. There was some sort of crop failure on top of much more demand for cane. I remember in 1985 trying everything to find something to play, they just were not playing like the earlier reeds. I was able to find an older box of MH tenor La Voz (black and green, smaller box that opened up on the long side like a briefcase), they smoked compared to the current La Voz.

Mike Ruhl · 04-18-2003, 03:00 AM

Just a thought on LaVoz reeds, circa mid-1970s. I was in high school then, and like most kids played regular Ricos, and bought them one or two at a time. Occasionally I'd pick up a couple of LaVoz, and while I loved the way they played, they always stung my lip - I figured they weren't dried out enough. I distinctly experiencing this over several years.

I also still have some 1990 or '91 "vintage" brown box Ricos left, and I've also have noticed that they seem to be better finished than the current orange box Ricos.

All that said, I'm currently playing Vandoren V16s and enjoying them very much.

**Hurling Frootmig** · 04-18-2003, 03:22 AM

The term I should have used was circa 1990 not "vintage".

I've picked up an assortment of regular Rico's recently and there's a difference in the cut and finish of the reeds. I always remember them having a symetric look to the reed/bark area above the heart. Now they are just as bad as Vandoren in that some start from the left and some start from the right. I guess it's going to be french filed for me from now on.

I'm also finding that the grain structure isn't as tight.

MitchP · 04-18-2003, 05:29 AM

Hurling, that wasn't a dig at you; more that I'm finding myself old all of sudden. I teach a jazz history class at a local college and today only 2 out of sixty students knew who Chick Corea was. Granted they're not music majors, but...
The density of the grain, yes I think that has alot to do with it as well as these bizarre cuts as you mentioned. The Alexander reeds are much more dense, that's why he suggests soaking them. I didn't like them at first but now I do, on tenor anyways. I think I've been so used to crappy cane that these take some time to get used to.
Older standard brown box Rico's were decent, plenty of jazz players used them.
I'm not one to fuss with reeds and I'm not a retro grouch but I still think they were better.

Mike Ruhl · 04-18-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MitchP

The Alexander reeds are much more dense, that's why he suggests soaking them. I didn't like them at first but now I do, on tenor anyways. I think I've been so used to crappy cane that these take some time to get used to.

I think that's what give a lot of folks problems with Alexanders.