Sorry if this is a stupid q

mbs · 01-12-2005, 03:15 AM

I'm working through Jamey Aebersold's "Maiden Voyage" vol. and i came across an improv exercise with a III/VI7/II/V7 chord progression (G-/C7/F-/Bb7). I was wondering. The scales for the G- and C7 and for the F- and Bb7 are the same. Why do they do this if both scales are the same? That is, why not just call it G-/G-/F-/F- for instance or the other way around. Does the G-/C7/F-/Bb7 give a different sound? Does this have to do with harmonic relationships? Thanks.

**wersax** · 01-18-2005, 06:00 AM

The modes that fits G- and C7 are from the key of F major, and the modes that F- and Bb7 are from the key of Eb.......

Chris S · 01-18-2005, 07:02 AM

The chord progression would sound really bad. YOU can think of it that way, but make sure that you know what the REAL chords are, otherwise you might get yourself in a funk (no, not like Headhunters funk). It's about the chords, not the scales.

Chris S

**wersax** · 01-18-2005, 12:56 PM

Sorry Chris S, but you need to read my post again. All I did was state the parent scales that the two ii-V's are derived from. The ii gets the dorian mode, the V gets the mixolydian from the aforementioned keys. At some point, you have to learn the scales that fit those chords. How you use those scales or chords and what you play over the progression is another matter. We are touching upon an old subject. As players we tend to be either vertical (chord) or horizontal (scale) in our orientation. This presumes that you know the basic chords and the scales that fit them, of course.
" The chord progression would sound really bad." I really don't know what you mean there! Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but it sounds like you're saying those scales don't fit those chords; what do you mean?
No offense intended, BTW...........

bjornmusic · 01-24-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbs

I'm working through Jamey Aebersold's "Maiden Voyage" vol. and i came across an improv exercise with a III/VI7/II/V7 chord progression (G-/C7/F-/Bb7). I was wondering. The scales for the G- and C7 and for the F- and Bb7 are the same. Why do they do this if both scales are the same? That is, why not just call it G-/G-/F-/F- for instance or the other way around. Does the G-/C7/F-/Bb7 give a different sound? Does this have to do with harmonic relationships? Thanks.

It is not G-G-F-F-......
It is G- C7 F- Bb7....!!!!!
The scales are not the same at all.....
Because the C7 and Bb7 chords are dominant chords, they create tension and wants to be resolved, you woudnt have that tension if you played G-G-F-F-.......
The scale approaches in your book are proppably very basic because you are a beginner...
In a ii-V you should stick to the dorian over the ii chord, but over the V chord (as long as it resolves by the circle of fourths which it in this case does ), you should experiment with the Altered scale(also called superlocrian whicg is the melodic minor from the b9th ), the half-wholetone scale, the wholetone scale, the dim scale from the b9th, the minor pentatonic from the b7th.......Etc....
May this help, and fell free to mail me if needed,
Bjorn
Because if you stick to the mixolydian mode over the V chord,

Alex · 01-27-2005, 10:24 PM

They use Gm7 C7 instead of just C7 C7 because it sounds better, plainly put. The minor 2 chords provide harmonic interest, motion, and a contrast to the strong dominant chords they lead into. It's the same scale, but emphasis on different notes.

So while gm7 emphasises G, Bb, D and F, C7 emphasises C E G and Bb. Using the F of the Gm7 chord over the C7 would clash with the E.

Most people just use the mixolydian scale (ie C7) over both chords.

**gary** · 01-27-2005, 10:33 PM

I believe motion like Gmin7 to C7 is because of the root movement of fifths: G-C(-F), the strongest root movement in traditional western harmony.

**TJS** · 04-11-2005, 12:05 AM

The way I look at it is that every chord has a function and every chord progression leads somewhere. If you look at each chords individually G- C7 would probably go together and F- Bb7 would probably go together and they would indeed have very different chords. However, if you look at the entire progression as iii vi ii V the whole progression could be in Eb Major. Also, some people, like Jamey Aebersold, look at these progressions as scales and not only chords. He sometimes will refer to chords as chord-scales. This makes sense to me because if you think of the progression in a key you can play the same scale throught the ii or the V and it sounds fine. One more thing that David Baker taught is that the ii and the V are interchangeable. So you could have G- G- F- F- or C7 C7 Bb7 Bb7 or with subs C7 F#7 f- E7, etc. There are many ways to look at these progressions. I try to approach all chords as functions that lead to something else. It allows me more freedom to get to my desired destination. You need to be comfortable enough with the chords that you can resolve whenever you want, but you don't want to play chord tones only. It can be very restricting. Sorry for the long post but I just thought I would throw in my two cents.

njmyers · 05-11-2005, 10:07 PM

That chord progression is the basis of the entire bebop movement. Instead of just sitting on one dominant chord (the C7 chord) you can put the Gm7 in front of it to create the feeling of a more moving and dynamic line. These chords do both come from the same scale, but the sound of a ii V creates more of a direction than just a V chord. The reason bebop has alot of notes is because they are play over extra chord progressions. It's really really hard to play double or triple time over one chorde, but if you make ii V's everywhere it becomes alot easier. If you really want to be a bebopper, use the bebop scale in eight notes over the Gm7 C7 chord progression. It goes like this C B Bb A G F E D C. Run it descending to captures the whole essence of the chord prgression. This is a (very) good one to practice in ALL keys.

Ken · 05-11-2005, 10:55 PM

Yes the scales are the same, and when you are playing you can think of it that way if it makes it easier. As another poster says it just sounds better.

If you transcribe what the bass is playing in each bar, you should find that he/she will often play the root (e.g. G in G-) and/or the fifth (D). In fact if you transcribe what the bass is playing in any tune you should find this.

My teacher had me do exactly this in my first years.