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Is the F# trill key necessary?

24K views 159 replies 38 participants last post by  hakukani 
#1 ·
Does anyone really need this key?
Without doubt, someone will insist that it is imperative for playing Tchaikovsky's concerto for mandolin & jaws harp in the mixolydian mode of A# minor...but I would suggest that most of us never use it.
Surely it would reduce cost, weight, & potential leaks if it were omitted from standard horns.
Could it not be supplied as an optional extra...such as high F# (another dubious key), should anyone really need it.
 
#2 ·
Some cheaper horns did without it and some expensive baritones left it out in their design too (Martin Baritones don't seem to have one)


I , mostly a self taught saxophonist, don't use it but I hear that other folks find it useful in some chromatic passages ( I had to learn to use the front Bb-Bis key since I used for a long time almost exclusively the side Bis-Bb) . So it is very possible that some players find it essential, to me it is nice to check the intonation of my saxophone (which is the only one instance when I use it)
 
#3 ·
I use it all the time when moving between F and F#. I'm big on alternate fingerings and try never to alternate between the index and middle fingers of either hand. I could get by without it. For that matter, I could get by without the bis key and the side C key but my technique is a whole lot more fluid with those keys than it would be without them.
 
#4 ·
The dude is right. In fact I've never heard this key called a trill key and never thought of it as such. It facilitates moves from F to F# and vice versa in various keys and chromatic passages. More important: try playing a fast F-F#-F triplet w/o it. If you do, I'd like to know how. I find it if not indispensable at least very handy. Even the right-hand "G# trill key" on my Conn, though more aptly named, has more function than trilling. I can bring fork high E & F into better tune with it quite easily, even on some pretty fluid passages. Likewise the fork right-hand D# trill on Conns: This key has made nearly impossible transitions from, say, Eb to low B to low C and back, easily playable, and I've come across passages like that often in various arrangements, not just on obscure archaic rarely played pieces. Granted, with a more ergonomic left-hand table key setup some of those passages might be more playable without the fork D# trill, but even then I think I've got newer horns beat with this setup.
BTW, in the left hand I sometimes go from bis Bb to C & vice versa, and sometimes use the side Bb; it all depends on the context and what flows after studying the mechanics of the passage at speed. I even slur from B to bis Bb on occasion, which I think some might consider a no-no (rules are made to be broken).
My two hundredths of a semitone worth...
 
#8 ·
+1. There are some passages you simply have to have it for. I don't use it a lot but I use it every gig...

I used to avoid it (and the side C) because you can always just play something else that sounds good, but when I got serious about playing, (and occasionally when working with a horn section) I found I had to put it's use in my bag of tricks. I'm glad I did. It made me a little better I think.
 
#6 ·
I've been playing Sigurd Rascher's 154 Saxophone Exercises and he encourages the use of the bis key as a way of covering all options. Also holding down right finger notes to play certain arpeggios. The only time I use the right F# is when the music is written but never improvising. I have too many other things to think about.
Also I don't really like the high F# key which makes playing scalar altissimo passages more difficult. But I guess we should get used to using them all.
 
#10 ·
I am in this boat also. I might be able to live without it but I am so used to having it there when I want it, so it is hard to really say. I can think of quick passages of say going from d# to f to f# and back etc. where I am used to just using it. I just feel it comes in handy and yes it is not only for trills.
 
#19 ·
I use the F# key more often than the side C key. I defy anyone to do a quicker, cleaner, triplet or trill f to F# without it.
 
#21 ·
I do use it quite a bit and teach my students that way too.
It's just very helpful technically, it minimizes the movements of you fingers, which is a good thing IMHO.
And you can hear it too , even in a medium tempo, it's smoother, cleaner, compared to this flip flop F-F# fingering.
 
#23 ·
Right. To each his own. The important thing is we're all hopefully being the best we can at whatever music we need to make, by hwatever means.
booboo raised the high F# key which reminds me: I use the "F# trill" key also to go from my high F# to high G and back (like triplets or whatever). I often use the 1, 3, 4 altissimo F#, and flicking the "trill" key gives me a decent G that speaks immediately, unlike the 1, 3, 6 G, which demands something more of my airstream and would be a bear to flip right over to from the 1 3 4 F#.
PS: Cap'n Bb implies the RH F# key is awkward to get to and I'm sure some are better placed than others. I like the Conn 10M key. It's a wide bar that the joint of my finger easily lands on every time. I never liked the little pearl button on my Mk VIs, or the elegant oval on later Selmer horns - I never got the point of that other than the stylishness of it, although everyone's hands are different thus we like different things about different horns.
PPS: I was reading an article somewhere about how the high F# key on horns so equipped has a lot of other functionality. I forgot exactly what, as I have no high F#.
PPPS: I read an interview of Sonny Stitt and he talked about Jaws: He said something like "Eddie had keys on his horn that he blocked off! I asked him how he could play it without them, and he told me 'I don't need all those keys. They just get in my way'!"
 
#24 ·
PPPS: I read an interview of Sonny Stitt and he talked about Jaws: He said something like "Eddie had keys on his horn that he blocked off! I asked him how he could play it without them, and he told me 'I don't need all those keys. They just get in my way'!"
Co-incidentally, an old pro chum just telephoned me...as he does not understand "modern technology", he wants me to put his Berg baritone mouthpiece on ebay...the one he played during his seven years with Georgie Fame.
As a point of interest I asked him if he ever used the F# trill during his 60 year career as a pro. He did not know what I was talking about....even when I described the position of the key; yet, even without the F# trill, he was good enough to tour with Sarah Vaughan! :bluewink:
 
#26 ·
The logic is clear: have a system in which there is a transition between all semitones achievable without cross fingering. It is elegant and it works. I use side F# quite often. Definitely ergonomically superior to flippin' fingers when you can use it and once you get your head around it.
 
#27 ·
Well, the automatic octave key is not 'necessary either, but it is convenient.
 
#38 ·
I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that because you don't use it, most others don't use it either. I rarely use 1+1 or 1+2 fingerings for Bb, but recognize that others use them more regularly than I do.

Honestly, I don't use alt F# in improvisation because like another poster said, I've got more important things to worry about than which F# fingering to use. But in written out music, classical or jazz, that I can plan out before hand, I'll definitely use the chromatic F# if I think it yields a better result.
 
#39 ·
There's no question about it that many players of all levels use the trill F# key. It gives a better legato and a trill than the flip fingering. This has nothing to do with the player. Can some people play a very good transition with the flip? Sure. At a similar technical ability (let's say the highest), the trill key will be smoother in legato. You might still not use it and that's fine. I often don't use it and instead use the flip. Sometimes I do use it. Same as the F# trill key on clarinet. I rarely use it, almost only for trills. I almost always use the flip. Same for the top banana key, I pretty much never use it. Would I want the maker not to include these keys? No.

I think your suggested advantages for not having it are exaggerated. It's a relatively simple key in that it is not linked to any other.

Hold a sax with it and a similar one without and you probably couldn't even tell which is which by their weight. Probably even after an hour or four.

Considering all that it costs to make a saxophone, I think not putting this key will reduce very little from the price, next to nothing really. Eventhough there's the key guard to add too. It just seems like a fraction of the total cost that goes into the instrument. IMO it's worth the very little extra for just the possibility that one day you'll find a use for it. Have a mouthpiece of ligature you don't need? More than one? It's already a lot more waste...

Probably very few people will prefer not to have this key. I would guess less than 1% in reality but even if it is more (and I would guess actually even less), probably not enough for any company to bother. If this is so important, you can buy from one of those companies that will make whatever you order.

As far as leaking, this is a closed key that isn't used very often probably. It is the least likely to leak IME. Even saxophones I see with almost all pad leaking, this key often doesn't leak. It doesn't get all the imedaite water/dirt of the palm keys and also not at the bottom like the Eb key. I would even say it is the least likely key to leak or need the pad replaced. Unlike the high F# key (which I like) that has its upper post in a volunarable location, the trill F# posts rarely get bent. In this respect I would say it's realistically not a problem at all.
 
#40 ·
My teacher, all those years ago, maintained that the first rule of fingering was to keep your fingers in close contact with the main keys....an unequivocal rule.
Pete Thomas' in his spoof advert, advertises Sax-O-Glue...."No more finger-lifting blues to slow you down". This would not be amusing were it not true.
Both F and F# are available, under your fingers in the main stack....learn to use them, just as pianists & trumpeters have....oh how they would laugh at the "need" for an extra key.

Keyboard players need only to learn to play in C....the transposing button takes care of the rest!....similar philosophy.

Personally, like Jaws, I use only the main stacks, avoiding even aux F and the side keys, this to avoid unnecessary finger lifting. All the notes, including altissimo are available without removing one's fingers from the main stacks.....Bb is either bis, or 1&1.....Keep it Simple, an infallible rule.

Hands up anyone who would use the F# trill during a lightning fast chromatic scale from D to D.

clarinbass.
Clearly you never worked in the Aircraft Industry.
To advocate, or even justify, a less than necessary system which adds cost, weight & could give problems would be deemed obscene.
Remember the old adage "If a butterfly lands on a bridge, the bridge bends".
 
#44 ·
Pete Thomas' in his spoof advert, advertises Sax-O-Glue...."No more finger-lifting blues to slow you down".
Spoof! What spoof?

Hands up anyone who would use the F# trill during a lightning fast chromatic scale from D to D.
I do.

But I couldn't have told you that without playing one. I don't even think about it.
 
#42 ·
Presumably a slow & cumbersome chromatic scale. :bluewink:
Would it not be better to teach your pupils to articulate their 1st & 2nd fingers?
Only then will they play like Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis. :mrgreen:
 
#43 ·
I consider this key to be an essential tool, one that I use quite often - it makes some passages much easier & cleaner at speed.
 
#45 ·
It also offers a slightly more "fluid" fingering for F# to G trill, leaving the side F# key down. Uses index finger instead of middle finger, and moves only one key cup instead of two.
 
#47 ·
This thread indicates that the F# trill key is not necessary for some people, but it is necessary for many others.

Some people apparently believe that flipping fingers is "good enough." Just like some people find the sound they get from synthetic reeds to be "good enough." That's fine for them, but, try as they might, they're not going to convince too many other people of it. Many people believe that "good enough" is not good enough if you can do better.
 
#60 ·
Just like some people find the sound they get from synthetic reeds to be "good enough." That's fine for them, but, try as they might, they're not going to convince too many other people of it. Many people believe that "good enough" is not good enough if you can do better.
One cannot fail to be impressed with your modesty.
At every opportunity you are sufficiently self effacing to admit to your inability to play synthetic reeds. What is this sound that you seek?...one wonders if you are perhaps confusing the saxophone sound with that of a banjo.
Many of us...including Pete Thomas, achieve a good sax sound from synthetics. I would be grateful if you could explain just what, exactly, is wrong with Pete Thomas' sound.
 
#49 ·
You're still comparing apples and oranges.
Weight is an important factor in the aircraft industry but it's irrelevant for saxophones.
Think of the extra keys that have been added on over the years (high F#, G on some sopranos, tilting spatulas), the extra key guards, the double arms. All of this adds extra weight but it doesn't take away from performance.
 
#53 ·
Do forgive me, but weight is an important area in any area of production.....you are confusing marketing gimmicks with what is necessary.

Your earlier point concerning the tooling costs in leaving out the F# trill key is also flawed.
Were the sax a casting or a moulding you would, to a degree, have a valid point.
The saxophone, however, is fabricated....all the operations being carried out on jigs....to leave out one of these operations would, therefore, be no problem, & save both time & costs.

warp x
Just keep practising as you seem so fond of trills. :bluewink:
 
#61 ·
First pandas..

..now F# keys..

I sense a pattern here. :mrgreen:

In Captain Bbs defence, I think a F/F# trill would be unusual in music of any style. So would a triplet thingy FF#F. A chromatic passage covering F/F# would be pretty common but there I think the usual F# fingering could be as good as the alternate most of the time.

Now I'm probably going to get a telling off too..
 
#73 ·
In Captain Bbs defence, I think a F/F# trill would be unusual in music of any style. So would a triplet thingy FF#F. A chromatic passage covering F/F# would be pretty common but there I think the usual F# fingering could be as good as the alternate most of the time.

Now I'm probably going to get a telling off too..
Not a telling off but I must say that trills of any kind just don't occur in the music I play - well all right perhaps on rare occasion in a written chart, but one from F to F# is then surely once in a decade at best. And when it does confront me, I have my "trill key". In the meantime F-F#-F triplets will occur regularly, as will that triplet figure on any pair of adjacent notes... in the music I play. And my hat is off to those who can do either of these things smoothly and repeatably without the side F#. I am not Joe College and have only so much time left on this planet to express beauty, and I'm a do it the quickest & dirtiest way I can. Dirty beauty... now that's something to ponder...:scratch: Monk had a tune Ugly Beauty...
 
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