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  1. #21
    Forum Contributor 2012 eff eff's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    ... this is a tough subject. IMO nobody here is "Wrong" or "uneducated". We all have some experience with different types of "finishes and plantings".

    Here is my experience...

    I have a Selmer SBA #55,000 with 95% original Lacquer.

    I have only played TWO horns that I like BETTER than my horn.

    1. Was an original GOLD PLATED Conn 10m (un-F*****G REAL!!!!!!!!!!)

    2. Was a Mark 6 #61,000 it was also GOLD PLATED (it was a students horn and I almost SHOT him for it)!!!!

    I don't really know what that means but, thought that you might like to know...?

    Eff Eff

  2. #22

    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by eff eff View Post
    ... this is a tough subject. IMO nobody here is "Wrong" or "uneducated". We all have some experience with different types of "finishes and plantings".

    Here is my experience...

    I have a Selmer SBA #55,000 with 95% original Lacquer.

    I have only played TWO horns that I like BETTER than my horn.

    1. Was an original GOLD PLATED Conn 10m (un-F*****G REAL!!!!!!!!!!)

    2. Was a Mark 6 #61,000 it was also GOLD PLATED (it was a students horn and I almost SHOT him for it)!!!!

    I don't really know what that means but, thought that you might like to know...?
    Why is that so funny...

  3. #23

    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Ok, I know, most of the guys don't believe, I don't want to start a fight here, I just wanna give an answer from the other party.

    I'm sure, that the finish has an effect. And I could compare lots of intruments of the same model but different finish.
    Also I could play the 66R UL and the laquered version in Frankfurt on the Musikmesse. The UL blew me away, one of the best horns on frankfurt (only the Inderbinen and Brancher were better)
    Unlaquered horns gerenrally are sounding compared to their laquered brothers more fat and wider it spreads more, it has more charakter but it has definitvly a loss of center.
    Classical Music won't sound on this horns, but for rock'n'roll it will be orthsome.
    In my oppinion this difference is quite noticeable, and you should think what you wanna gonna play with it.
    besides I like the optik.

    If you wanna fight about laqueres revive one of the old threads, if you want to argue generally about those small gimmicks and effect
    http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=93337

    there I lost also some words, how the finish can affect the sound
    This is exactly what I have experienced with horns that are unlacquered. They sound more fat and less centered. Some crispness is missing in the sound. But what about vintage/brushed lacquer? Are they sounding as lacquered or unlacquered horns?

  4. #24
    SOTW Administrator hakukani's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Branford didn't sound 'rubbery' when he played a black horn...

    The best way to tell if a horn sounds different whether lacquered or unlacquered is to play that horn until the lacquer wears away. It should only take 20-30 years.
    Sound guy theory of relativity: E=mc^2 (+or- 3dB)
    Sax player theory of relativity: E=mc^2 (+or- .010" at the tip)
    "Free jazz is the vegemite of the musical world. It's an acquired taste."-J. Jacques

  5. #25
    Forum Contributor 2009 Gizmo Hall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by hakukani View Post
    Branford didn't sound 'rubbery' when he played a black horn...

    The best way to tell if a horn sounds different whether lacquered or unlacquered is to play that horn until the lacquer wears away. It should only take 20-30 years.
    Wait!

    If you played a horn that long, couldn't the "vibrations" change the "qualities" of the metal in horn?





    "I'm just a man, trying to find the reasons why he stands." -Raul Midon

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo Hall View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hakukani View Post
    Branford didn't sound 'rubbery' when he played a black horn...

    The best way to tell if a horn sounds different whether lacquered or unlacquered is to play that horn until the lacquer wears away. It should only take 20-30 years.
    Wait!

    If you played a horn that long, couldn't the "vibrations" change the "qualities" of the metal in horn?





    In danger the recieve another infraction points or this thread gets closed, indeed there are some hints and good thoughts that this really can have an effect.

  7. #27
    SOTW Administrator hakukani's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo Hall View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hakukani View Post
    Branford didn't sound 'rubbery' when he played a black horn...

    The best way to tell if a horn sounds different whether lacquered or unlacquered is to play that horn until the lacquer wears away. It should only take 20-30 years.
    Wait!

    If you played a horn that long, couldn't the "vibrations" change the "qualities" of the metal in horn?






    Yes, and 20 or 30 years also changes the quality of the player, too, oddly enough.---and the most important part of the player, the brain, followed by lungs, throat, soft pallet, tongue, teeth, and sinuses have a much greater effect on the sound of the horn than any other part.

    I have a MkVI alto that I bought new in 1972. It has a mixture of lacquered and unlaquered parts now. The unlacquered parts take much more maintenance than the parts that have lacquer.

    I really don't think the sound of the horn has changed because of layer of lacquer.

    To the OP: Tobias is a zealot about all sorts of custom and hotrod things that claim to 'improve' the sound. If he spent half the time practicing that he does with this stuff, he would be a much better musician, and wouldn't concern himself with mundane things like these, IMO. I will give you the same advice.

    My advice to any young player is to get a good horn that you like, regardless of mundane things like color, with a decent mouthpiece, and don't fall victim to GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). Leave that to us old farts.

    Leave the study of material and how it effects the sound to manufacturers and scientists. They have the tools to objectively determine what's really happening.
    Sound guy theory of relativity: E=mc^2 (+or- 3dB)
    Sax player theory of relativity: E=mc^2 (+or- .010" at the tip)
    "Free jazz is the vegemite of the musical world. It's an acquired taste."-J. Jacques

  8. #28
    Prodigal Son and Forum Contributor 2008 martysax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    It's good to have you back, Tobias.

    I missed you.

    I played a Black Yamaha tenor last month at the symposium in Fairfax. It wouldn't stop talking! I hardly had to do anything and it spoke right away.

    I also played a matte Reference 54 vs a lacquered one. The lacquered one had a much clearer tone.

    The silver serie II Tenor just didn't seem to sing.

    I also couldn't help but notice the resonance stones on the cannonball necks.

    Welcome back.
    Just two questions: Where's the Bar located relative to the stage, and does the band get a discount?

    Songs I recorded with The Cyclones

    Check out my new informative site!

  9. #29
    Forum Contributor 2009 Gizmo Hall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    I know, I just wanted to stir the pot.

    I got a Conn Wonder from MartinMod on its way, and I believe it'll be the horn that I'll stick with. And I found a great mouthpiece today.

    I'm really impartial to both lacquer and plating. Oddly enough, the Conn is both unlacquered and silver plated.

    I did, however, try my instructor's Wilson ligature next to my BG leather lig and blew me away. It was unbelievably more open.
    "I'm just a man, trying to find the reasons why he stands." -Raul Midon

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Almost all old C-Melody saxophones are silver plated with a gold-plated bell. They have a reputation for being aggressively bright in tone. They commonly blast away soprano saxophones because of their silver plating. Don't mess with a silver-plated c-mel! Finish does matter! Just buy a few of these old c-melodies. You will see what I'm talking about!
    D.R.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    "I got a Conn Wonder from MartinMod on its way, and I believe it'll be the horn that I'll stick with..."

    Belief systems triumphing, even before you play it?!! :-)
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  12. #32
    Forum Contributor 2009 Gizmo Hall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) View Post
    "I got a Conn Wonder from MartinMod on its way, and I believe it'll be the horn that I'll stick with..."

    Belief systems triumphing, even before you play it?!! :-)
    Yeah, I had a feeling about it the first time I saw it. It's weird.

    And I'm really antsy. I want it now, but I can wait.[Impnt]
    "I'm just a man, trying to find the reasons why he stands." -Raul Midon

  13. #33
    Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by DavyRay View Post
    Almost all old C-Melody saxophones are silver plated with a gold-plated bell. They have a reputation for being aggressively bright in tone. They commonly blast away soprano saxophones because of their silver plating. Don't mess with a silver-plated c-mel! Finish does matter! Just buy a few of these old c-melodies. You will see what I'm talking about!
    I can't really believe I am reading this...

    Ever wondered about whether it might be to do with the zillion other differences between the two sax groups you describe?

    BTW, what does "blast away" mean?
    Do all silver plated sops blast away all lacquered baris, and all silver plated baris blast aways all lacquered sops?

    If I get a really crappy design silver plated alto, does it blast away every pro design lacquered alto?

    Here's a money spinner for you... Market silver plated clarinets, or plastic recorders, or bagpipes.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    This topic is kinda like "whack-a-mole" ain't it?

  15. #35

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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    hakukani and superaction80: do you also want to mess up this thread? just keep it down with the usal "can't be! now close this thread or we will spam it"

  16. #36
    Distinguished SOTW Member kymarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    I'm giving up. I am not going to get into this again...

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamtva View Post
    I'm thinking about getting an unlacquered tenor... What are the differences in sound and maintenance between lacquered and unlacquered in general? I doubt I'll be able to try both versions before I buy so I'd like to get your opinions.

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by matsuo View Post
    not this again, if you look around you'll see MASSIVE arguments over finish. They don't effect the sound. I would think the unlaquered sax would require more maintenance
    True!
    Adamtva, to save you a simple search in this forum, start by reading at least all of this, including all th links they reference. You will then understand why those who have something knowledgeable to say, are unlikely to be bothered saying it again. Set aside a couple of days, and maybe a few months for some serious acoustic study!

    http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62244
    http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=61212
    http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=42432
    http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40249
    http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=96155
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  18. #38

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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Ähm, why should some read nearly 50pages old forum stuff and all the links (which are mostly just pseaudo scific) to be allowed to ask a question?

    @admvta: If you have any question about this topic, mail me a pm and I try to help you

  19. #39
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Note to myself: remember to DNFTT I have to remember this! I really do.
    Every comment that I make on anything only ever represents my personal opinion. I don’t have any universal truth to spread or convey
    Sent from my computer, at home, without advertising on its brand or the programs that it uses.

  20. #40
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lacquered vs. Unlacquered Tenor

    Well, John Packer seem to think that black lacquer makes a difference:

    http://www.johnpacker.co.uk/john-pac...nge-22/115.htm

    And they have a very scientific and convincing way to prove it it:

    'What 'The Raven' gives you is the black lacquer and the 'black lacquer' sound. To the uninitiated, this may sound strange, but black lacquer affects the way the instrument resonates - imagine how differently you'd resonate if you were covered in black lacquer!

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