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Thread: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

  1. #1

    Default Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    An ex friend of mine stole my Mark VI tenor sax in May of 2006 and sold it to the Sam Ash Music store on Colonial Rd in Orlando, Fl. She also sold my Muramatsu flute as well. She told them that I was a member of the Navy Band, which is true, and that I had died, which is not true. Sam Ash knows who they sold both instruments to, but will not give me that information, and says I have no right to any kind of compensation from them.

    If anyone knows of this instrument, please let me know. The horn had original lacquer, and had been customized by Emilio Lyons. The instrument was made around 1962. In addition to this being a beautiful playing horn, it belonged to my grandfather who was a professional musician for over seventy years. He was my first teacher, and outside of Joe Viola was the best. At least Joe wouldn't hit me on the back of the head if I played a wrong note.

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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    If you have the serial numbers, that would be helpful. You should also file a police report.
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    Forum Contributor 2008/Distinguished SOTW Member Swampcabbage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Did you file a police report? Have you been in contact with them to follow up on the case? What about insurance (homeowners renters?) Without any kind of report filed you may be out of luck.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian paulwl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Quote Originally Posted by stolenMKVI View Post
    An ex friend of mine stole my Mark VI tenor sax in May of 2006 and sold it to the Sam Ash Music store on Colonial Rd in Orlando, Fl. She also sold my Muramatsu flute as well. She told them that I was a member of the Navy Band, which is true, and that I had died, which is not true. Sam Ash knows who they sold both instruments to, but will not give me that information, and says I have no right to any kind of compensation from them.
    Shame on them for a) not checking out her story and b) refusing to cooperate. Assuming you have serial numbers and/or other proof of ownership, they may have to come across. (Don't know the Florida laws tho.)
    Jazz = a man with a $5,000 horn driving a $500 car to a $50 gig.
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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2008 bfahle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    IANL, but I echo what others said; serial numbers and police reports are a necessity. It is impossible to own stolen goods in the U.S. If theft can be proven, whoever currently owns the item is in possession of stolen goods regardless of how they came by it, so Sam Ash is wrong on that point, but it would probably take a court order to get the current owners' names.
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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    If it were me I would have that women on america's most wanted, she committed a crime against music.
    For every one Jazz saxophonist, there are 100 undiscovered

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    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Quote Originally Posted by stolenMKVI View Post
    Sam Ash knows who they sold both instruments to, but will not give me that information, and says I have no right to any kind of compensation from them.
    Very sorry to hear of this. Surely the police can get the information from Sam Ash?

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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    2+ years ago?...I wonder what the statute of limitations is...
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    Selmer Mark VI Tenor Sax, Morgan mouthpiece

  9. #9

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Both the flute and the sax are listed on the National Stolen Property list, and the the current owners are aware that the the instruments are stolen. Both Sam Ash and the Orlando Police continue to tell me that I the instruments were sold "fair and square" and I have no legal right to them.

    Police reports have been filed and the case in the hands of the Florida State Attorney. I had several different law enforcement agencies involved. I am waiting for an arrest to be made. In the mean time, the people who have the instruments are aware they are stolen, and I am sure they will do everything they can do to keep them themselves. I was just hoping somehow someway someone in the Orlando area may know of these instruments. Maybe someone's friend bragged about there lucky purchase. from what I know, the flute is is Lakeland, and the sax is in Lake Worth.

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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    One of the basic legal issues raised by these facts is known as the "bona fide purchaser" (or BFP) defense. If the thief sells to someone who has no actual knowledge or reason to know that the item was stolen, that person can claim BFP status and retain title. There are probably ways around this defense that I am not aware of, but if you can prove that Sam Ash either knew or had reason to know the items were stolen then you may be able to hold them responsible. The same goes for subsequent owners.

    This story is a great argument for getting insurance on your valuable horns.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Isn't there a crime called "receiving stolen property"? If you can prove that the instruments are yours, you could press charges against Sam Ash, have them return the money to the customer and get your horns back. Otherwise, Sam ash is basically a "fence" for stolen property.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Record your conversations w/ representatives of Sam Ash regarding your stolen horns. If the police can't use that to get a court order to investigate their records, there are alternatives. Some private investigators may be of assistance. Thugs for hire may be cheaper still.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    First of all when did this person sell it to Sam Ash? When they purchase a horn from someone they have it on hold (they cannot sell it) until I believe 30 days. The reason for this hold is so that they can make sure it is not stolen and is not in the Stolen Property System. If you can prove these instruments are yours, then you can file a police report for stolen property and these people who currently have these instruments are in possession of stolen property. It's one of the gray areas of the law but worth a shot. Sam Ash cannot provide detailed information to you the victim but can to the local police agency. The best thing to do is file a police report. Make sure you tell them about you ex-friend. Hopefully it all works out for you.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    The police know, and both instruments are on the national stolen property list. The women has been charged with theft, and I am awaiting arrest. The arrest could take a long time, since it is not a priority criminal offense.

    For more then a year I had made plans to go to Florida and pick up my instruments. Often the plans were made by the woman who sold them, and each time the plans were cancelled. She was able to keep me off the scent for a long time. She stopped talking to me when I accused her of selling the instruments. On a hunch I made a phone call to the larger stores in Orlando, and found out she had sold them ten months before.

    Throughout the whole time I have found that I have less rights then the person accused of a crime. The BFP defense is basically what is happening. I had been out of work for at least a year before this happened, so my instruments were no longer insured. You would think that being such a large chain store Sam Ash would try to help you out. They never asked for proof of ownership from the person who bought them in. They asked her no questions at all. They knew they had a person who didn't know the true monetary value of the instruments, and she couldn't care less about what she was doing to me.

    All things come out in the wash. I may never get my instruments back, yet I am certain that the consequences for her will be severe.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member kavala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Was this woman, the ex-friend, at one time more than a 'friend' ??

    Did you previously have a relationship with her ??
    Selmer Mk VI Tenor, s/no. 85,xxx Tn mpc - Jody Jazz DV New York 7*, Marquez Chinese tenor. JJ DV, JJ ESP, Link STM, Selmer Mk VII Alto, s/no. 302,xxx, Yamaha Flute F100SII http://www.youtube.com/kavalasax

  16. #16

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    Does all of this mean that you should keep receipts and/or ebay invoices for all the horns you ever purchase? I have not been so good about doing this. In fact, I own a horn right now that I have zero documentation for, since I didn't bother to print and keep the ebay invoice. So if I went into Sam Ash to sell it, I would have to prove that I'm the rightful owner? This sounds strange to me. They do say that "possession is 9/10 of the law." Maybe if you brought in a $5000 Mark VI as opposed to a $1000 Buescher Aristocrat they would be more likely to ask for proof of ownership? I wonder if retail music stores do have a rough guideline for this in terms of value.

    After reading a little more about this subect online, I don't think you have to prove ownership as much as prove who you are (show identification). Then the pawn shop or used instrument retailer is suppossed to turn the sales records into the police on a regular (daily?) basis.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    I just found this info on Bear's Cybersax site. I don't know how good the info is from a legal standpoint, and haven't actually read it carefully, but I thought it might help, as Bear is a CPA for his day job and seems to be able to string sentences together quite well...

    http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Stolen%20Saxophones.html

    Make sure you scroll down to "additional comments."

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    If you don't know who the current owners are, how do you know that they know the horns were stolen? It sounds like even the police are not convinced, or they'd be working harder to retrieve them.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    The police sent me a picture of the flute, which I had to verify was mine. I was told that the sax was sold to someone in Lake Mary, and that had been informed of the theft, but were not as gracious as the new owners of my flute. Which, by the way, the police detective says they absolutely love...... of course they would love, it is a freaking Muramatsu.

    Thanks Swingtone!

    I found this sight by accident the other day, and I thought there was someone here who would help in someway. I will post on Bear's sight as well.

    I was thinking about going to the Sam Ash in NYC, not too far from where I live and hand out flyers with my tale on it asking people to boycott the store.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Stolen Mark VI Tenor sold at Sam Ash in Orlando

    I wouldn't; if you end up in court with Sam Ash they could potentially use this kind of thing against you. I would just work through the law and the legal system.

    I think you should work with the police to uncover the identity of the people in possession of your instruments (you notice I didn't say "owners," this being after reading what Bear wrote) and have the police either confiscate the instruments or sue them to force their return.

    I think Bear is probably right. By law they are still yours, and it's just a matter of doing what's required to recover these instruments. It sounds like you have serial numbers, and that's key. But might you also have photos of yourself or your grandfather with the sax? Not that the horns could be identified conclusively that way, but it could help if you end up in court.

    The only thing is, if they have a law in Florida requiring that these folks be renumerated for their loss, who pays that? Sam Ash? The thief?

    BTW I think the fact you were friends (or even more than that?) with the thief really works against her from a legal standpoint; for that would mean that you were betrayed by someone in whom you had trusted the safekeeping of the horns (am I right about this?). Because normally, when someone is robbed and they're not away on a tour of duty or something, they find out about it right away and report it to the police. But since this person was apparently the only one who would have known of their whereabouts--and the only person able to alert you to a theft--then obviously no report would have been made, meaning there would have been no police report on file even if Sam Ash had gone through the proper protocol of reporting the sale, which I am assuming they did. So with that in mind, it kind of makes the crime seem even more egregious (adding insult to injury), and may result in a much stiffer penalty, if a judge is involved, then if a stranger had just burglarized your home.

    Anyway, just a thought....

    Good luck!

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