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  1. #1

    Default my 12M and a berg ss

    Recently got an old berg ss bari piece and have been very much enjoying the sound it gives to my 12M. However, I need to pull the piece very far out on the cork to tune properly - at least for the big band that I use the bari for.

    Is the chamber too small for the horn? I understand that vintage horns are more 'large chamber' friendly.

    I normally use a Morgan HR and it does have a larger chamber than this berg ss. The neck has been extended so that is not an option.

    Anyone use a Berg on vintage Conn baris? Any thoughts?
    www.ralphhopper.ca
    Acoustic Frontiers host/producer each Monday at 12.30pm [eastern] on CKCUFM.com or 93.1fm in Ottawa and archived audio 'On Demand' for one month from air date. Also co-hosting the CKCU jazz show 'Swing Is In The Air' Sundays at 4pm.

  2. #2

    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph lh View Post
    Recently got an old berg ss bari piece and have been very much enjoying the sound it gives to my 12M. However, I need to pull the piece very far out on the cork to tune properly - at least for the big band that I use the bari for.

    Is the chamber too small for the horn? I understand that vintage horns are more 'large chamber' friendly.

    I normally use a Morgan HR and it does have a larger chamber than this berg ss. The neck has been extended so that is not an option.

    Anyone use a Berg on vintage Conn baris? Any thoughts?
    I don't use a Berg, but I like a lot of others have had trouble getting the 12M to play in tune with a smaller chamber or modern mouthpiece. My general belief is the mouthpiece I currently use is actually a bass mouthpiece, works at around half way on the cork.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    good luck! you need a longer neck extencion to use the berg .
    runyon mouthpeices-no need to look elsewhere

  4. #4
    Forum Contributor 2008 saxxsymbol's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    I am working on an inexpensive solution to the conn 12M issue, will keep you posted. I am going to see my tech next week. he also owns a 12M. BTW, this solution will not permanently alter your horn in any way but should bring it in tune and move the mouthpiece farther on the neck.
    I am proud to be a Saxgourmet Endorsing Artist !

    My set ups:
    Saxgourmet Super 400 tenor, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Saxgourmet Super 400 alto, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Steve Goodson Model SP Bari, Jody Jazz Classic 7
    Fibracell reeds

    myspace.com/groovusband
    youtube.com/saxmanchuck

    "The worst thing in the world for a musician is to get an opportunity you are not prepared for."

  5. #5
    Forum Contributor 2008 saxxsymbol's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    I got back form the shop today and am happy to report that my idea worked !! I no longer have to play out on the end of the neck on my vintage tranny 12M Basically we took an old broken 12M octave key and lengthened it by about 1/2 inch. Now I pull the neck out between 1/4 to 1/2 inch and I can move the mouthpiece in twice that amount.
    I think that is because the neck socket end is about twice the diameter of the mouthpiece end. With the neck as full as I can extend it and not leak the mouthpiece is almost on a full inch. This gives me plenty of wiggle room on a hot day.
    This did not adversely affect the intonation of the horn at all. Octaves, etc are in perfect tune.( I had overblown octaves with the neck pulled out before I had the key made to see if it would affect intonation.)
    The best part is I haven't altered the horn at all. All I did was change out the octave key. I can change it back in about a minute. My tech is going to make one for his 12M.
    I am proud to be a Saxgourmet Endorsing Artist !

    My set ups:
    Saxgourmet Super 400 tenor, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Saxgourmet Super 400 alto, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Steve Goodson Model SP Bari, Jody Jazz Classic 7
    Fibracell reeds

    myspace.com/groovusband
    youtube.com/saxmanchuck

    "The worst thing in the world for a musician is to get an opportunity you are not prepared for."

  6. #6

    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    ^I tried that as much as I could, worked ok. Getting a larger chambered mouthpiece was a much easier fix for me.

  7. #7
    Forum Contributor 2008 saxxsymbol's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    changing out the key was a one minute fix. Actually I timed it at 12 seconds. i didn't alter my original key at all.. now the mouthpiece is solid on the neck and I can use my JJ classic with the baffle in for a very powerful sound. I am a tripler and use all modern mouthpieces and like to use similar ones.
    I am proud to be a Saxgourmet Endorsing Artist !

    My set ups:
    Saxgourmet Super 400 tenor, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Saxgourmet Super 400 alto, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Steve Goodson Model SP Bari, Jody Jazz Classic 7
    Fibracell reeds

    myspace.com/groovusband
    youtube.com/saxmanchuck

    "The worst thing in the world for a musician is to get an opportunity you are not prepared for."

  8. #8
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    I have an even older Conn New Wonder bari that won't play in tune with modern styled mouthpieces. A 5 1/2" long extended shank RPC solved that problem however.

  9. #9
    Forum Contributor 2008 saxxsymbol's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    I didn't want to get a new mouthpiece. I am very happy with my JJ's.
    I am proud to be a Saxgourmet Endorsing Artist !

    My set ups:
    Saxgourmet Super 400 tenor, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Saxgourmet Super 400 alto, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Steve Goodson Model SP Bari, Jody Jazz Classic 7
    Fibracell reeds

    myspace.com/groovusband
    youtube.com/saxmanchuck

    "The worst thing in the world for a musician is to get an opportunity you are not prepared for."

  10. #10
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    On the New Wonder, with the octave pip on the neck and the pad lever coming from the body, you can't really pull out the neck tenon, so that option wasn't available to me. I used an old Woodwind Co. pickle-barrel mouthpiece until I lucked into that modern alternative. Makes an old horn perfect for what I want to do with it (a couple songs a set in a blues band). But yeah, I got lucky, as most bari RPC's aren't that long, and I got it second hand before too much word was out. It's probably now worth double what a new, regular model might go for, but I'd never sell it so long as my Conn is still willing.

  11. #11
    Forum Contributor 2008 saxxsymbol's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    My conn has the same octave system. that is why we made a longer octave key for the neck so I could pull out from 1/4 to 1/2 inch and still activate the octave key. that translates to moving the mouthpiece in on the neck cork 1/2 to 1 inch. I am going to find a spacer to fit over the neck tenon to stabilize the neck in the socket. Something like a compression washer for brass pipe should work. this will also result in pulling the neck out the same every time i play it.
    I am proud to be a Saxgourmet Endorsing Artist !

    My set ups:
    Saxgourmet Super 400 tenor, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Saxgourmet Super 400 alto, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Steve Goodson Model SP Bari, Jody Jazz Classic 7
    Fibracell reeds

    myspace.com/groovusband
    youtube.com/saxmanchuck

    "The worst thing in the world for a musician is to get an opportunity you are not prepared for."

  12. #12
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    Quote Originally Posted by saxxsymbol View Post
    My conn has the same octave system.
    Mine is from around 1920; one of the really old ones keyed only to Eb. In this picture from the saxpics gallery you can see what I mean by the octave lever coming from the body of the horn. I guess you could extend it and bend it up to cover the pip, and that might give you some more choices with mouthpieces, but as I said, I got lucky finding a workable mouthpiece with a sound I prefer.

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor Merlin's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    Ralph, I just looked at your big band promo shot.

    OMG, do you ever like like Gerry Mulligan!

    Now I know why you bought my old 12m!

    Last edited by Merlin; 06-09-2008 at 01:50 PM. Reason: added photo link

  14. #14
    Forum Contributor 2008 saxxsymbol's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    My bad. That is indeed a much more complicated octave system than mine to modify. I think you would have to extend the rod up the horn and that would alter the originality too much. Mine is keyed to F. 18 pcs. nice.
    We struggle here to find trombone and trumpet players to fill a good section.
    I am proud to be a Saxgourmet Endorsing Artist !

    My set ups:
    Saxgourmet Super 400 tenor, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Saxgourmet Super 400 alto, Jody Jazz DV 7
    Steve Goodson Model SP Bari, Jody Jazz Classic 7
    Fibracell reeds

    myspace.com/groovusband
    youtube.com/saxmanchuck

    "The worst thing in the world for a musician is to get an opportunity you are not prepared for."

  15. #15

    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    Hi Merlin - Thanks for noticing. It takes a jazz fan to catch that. I usually get a different 'did you know you look like....' especially when I'm in Mexico and it's a street vendor!

    I've been a Mulligan fan for years and I've had the grey beard since the '80's as well. Some of his later photos are uncannily like me.

    Unfortunately I don't get as many chances as I'd like to play bari but I play a good number of Mulligan tunes on tenor. He wrote so many great tunes. And since I also like trains, one tune I'd love to do some day is K4.

    re the topic, still trying to figure out what to do but pulling out the neck is something that had come to mind.
    www.ralphhopper.ca
    Acoustic Frontiers host/producer each Monday at 12.30pm [eastern] on CKCUFM.com or 93.1fm in Ottawa and archived audio 'On Demand' for one month from air date. Also co-hosting the CKCU jazz show 'Swing Is In The Air' Sundays at 4pm.

  16. #16

    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    I used to have a conn 12m and changed my vintage gregory mouthpiece to a ottolink 7*. I had the same problems with having to pull out so far that the mouthpiece was falling off the cork. I tried an extension on my mouthpiece and found it threw the tuning of the horn off. My solution to the problem, after bringing the horn back to its original condition, was to purchase a new Taiwanese made horn. It works great with the ottolink and seems to have an almost vintage sound.

  17. #17
    Distinguished SOTW Member Chu-Jerry's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    Working on a customer's Conn New Wonder bari right now that I've just finished overhauling. With a SS Berg Larson mouthpiece it won't tune at all. With the Berg barely hanging on near the tip of the cork it still plays about 30-50 c sharp. I made a 1" extender/adapter that slips onto the end of the neck, as an experiment, and the Berg plays nominally in tune there but the intonation and playability are whacked then. It's just not a good match at all for the horn.

  18. #18
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: my 12M and a berg ss

    Now if only Berg made bass sax models...

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