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OK, I have no clue where to put this... I need all geeks' help.

4K views 37 replies 20 participants last post by  captain blowhard 
#1 ·
:treble: OK, I have a research paper I'm writing on how reeds lose vitality. I've done some testing that came back inconclusive as to microorganisms. I need some help getting references for the theory that it might be caused by warping. Any help you could lend before Wednesday evening, the 23rd of April, would be very much appreciated.

~DexterGordonisKing
 
#6 ·
Saliva only digests starch into sugar. It can't breakdown cellulose (plant building material). In other words, nothing in our body is able to completely breakdown cellulose. So I don't think it's the saliva.

On the other hand, since reeds vibrate at high frequencies, that may be why they become more fragile as it's used more. The vibration would occur in a line form where the reed wobbles with sound; therefore, trimming the reed, which moves that point further from the area of most vibration, someone brings back the vitality of the reed.

These are my two cents of science knowledge. (What do you expect from a biomedical engineering major? :D)
 
#4 ·
I would guess it has to do with the breakdown of the fibers - cellulose? - which lose their structure and thus their resilience. Take a piece of any fibrous material, like paper. Flex and vibrate the hell out of it. It loses its stiffness. But references? - fahgeddaboutit.
 
#7 ·
OK, first of all, I just need a reputable link to quote. I'm not trying to prove the point, merely proving that it exists. Secondly, the way the glucose is bonded within the reed prevents amylase (the salivary enzyme) from affecting it, even though the necessary catalyst is present. So, A LINK would be of the most help to me. Thanks...
 
#8 ·
The same condition affects Legeres, by the way... but they sure as heck don't get digested...! (At least, I hope!)

I'm inclined to believe that the sheer quantity of vibration just shakes things loose inside there...

Of course, I am also linkless, but best of luck on your search!
 
#10 ·
It's a bit foolish to look for a paper written directly "on" your topic as most saxophone players would spend time playing rather than writing papers on how reed gets softer over time. That's just common sense for most people.

I would recommend you look for something along the line of deterioration of something from continous and extreme vibration. I'm pretty sure there will be studies on that.
 
#18 ·
Well then, try a little ten-der-ness. :D
 
#15 ·
To be fair, science is about building on whats gone before....standing on the shoulders of giants as it were. I dont think plagiarism is what this is about.


Cant help with a link though.

Is there anything in the literature about the fatigue properties of wood...its been used in construction and aerospace for years...you would think there would be something out there.
 
#17 ·
Aargh. This is not helping. Look, I don't need to cite a paper, just somewhere on the net where it proves this is a viable option. I have done TONS of research on this, and I found it once and bookmarked it, but my comp crashed, so I'm left at ground zero. So, like I said, thanks for your postulations, pontifications, and varied insults, but I really just need a LINK to something on the web that will work in my bibliography. This paper is due tonight, so... Thank you for your help.
 
#19 ·
Aargh. This is not helping...thanks for your postulations, pontifications, and varied insults, but I really just need a LINK to something on the web that will work in my bibliography. This paper is due tonight...
Dude, you joined SOTW today and you have to complete your paper tonight and you're getting salty because nobody's giving you exactly what you want, in the time frame that you want it?
 
#21 ·
May be if you gave us some clue of what you remember...like what the site was, what the nature of the article was, what it was about in general terms, how old it was, whether it was from a published magazine, or a patent, or just an informal posting...was it specifically about sax reeds, or just reeds in general...you know, the kind of stuff that would be helpful in searching for it?

Ive read your first post a couple of times and Im still not sure? Is is an article on the way warping over time reduces a reeds performance...and you dont want anything else that might affect performance, just that?

Have I got it right?

Anyway, it would be easier to help if you could tell us as much as you can...

Was it something like this
http://www.reedgeek.com/WarpAndFlatten2.html
or something more formal, with empirical evidence quoted...
 
#22 ·
May be if you gave us some clue of what you remember...like what the site was, what the nature of the article was, what it was about in general terms, how old it was, whether it was from a published magazine, or just an informal posting...you know, the kind of stuff that would be usefull for searching for it?

Ive read your first post a couple of times and Im still not sure? Is is an article on the way warping over time reduces a reeds performance...and you dont want anything else that might affect performance, just that?

Have I got it right?

Anyway, it would be easier to help if you could tell us as much as you can...
OK. Let me see. I'm pretty sure it was a scientific study on the matter, where the guy tried tons of things. Let me see... Something that might help is that he tried a method of filming from inside the mouth while playing. The article just states that he researched it, and how.

Yes, you have that right. Only about the warping. Thanks...

~DexterGordonisKing
 
#26 ·
Would this be of any help? http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF10/1066.html

Quote:

Using infrared spectroscopy to compare old spent reeds with sound new ones, Casadonte found that spent reeds contain more carbon-oxygen double bonds. He doesn't know for sure why this happens or what it means, but suspects the player's saliva leaches pectins out of the reed to unmask the double bonds. The loss of pectins would explain why spent reeds cannot hold moisture as well as fresh ones do. This chemical degradation would make the cell walls thinner and more brittle, so the reed's higher vibrational frequencies would be enhanced. In effect, it would become more shrill.
 
#28 ·
#30 ·
Saliva may only digest simple sugars but simple sugars are CHO carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Cellulose would also consist of CHO as well with double and single bonds on different areas of the molecular chain. I've heard of oboe players soaking their reads in Peroxide (H2O2) to counter the effects of saliva which makes sense becuase the extra oxygen molecule would be available to bond with a free positively charged molecule.
 
#31 ·
Saliva may only digest simple sugars but simple sugars are CHO carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Cellulose would also consist of CHO as well with double and single bonds on different areas of the molecular chain. I've heard of oboe players soaking their reads in Peroxide (H2O2) to counter the effects of saliva which makes sense becuase the extra oxygen molecule would be available to bond with a free positively charged molecule...I think saliva's properties play a big role myself.
On the other hand one of the patents I bumped into on my quick search stated that peroxide actually reduces the useful life of a reed....
 
#34 ·
Thank you guys, the info is fantabulous. Looks like my research paper won't be quite so much of a beast now.
:cheers:

Now that you signed up, don't be a stranger.
Ya'll come back now, ya heah? ;)
 
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