Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

[bruce bailey]

He had it up before at $4,800 BIN. Since he is nearby, I contacted him and he insisted that it is sterling silver. It is worth about $300 as-is.

[soybean]

Bruce, that is hilarious. People like that deserve to pay extra ebay "stupidity" fees. Does he actually think it is solid silver?

If you find yourself walking by the shop, see if he'll let you have a look at that letter in the case. It may have some dating information. However, if it's just a form letter, it probably won't be much help.

[mad-dog]

Bruce, that is hilarious. People like that deserve to pay extra ebay "stupidity" fees. Does he actually think it is solid silver?

But it comes with a "note tightening tool"! I need one of those. Maybe then I can get a better price for the similar Holton alto (in better shape than this one) that I bought for $55.

[LaPorte]

I see a new listing on EBay for a Rudy model C Melody (these are quite rare) and the serial # is even earlier than mine. It is #25444, so in the Spring of 1928 (when the model was introduced) this horn was put together. I would think that this one and mine might have been made a month earlier, as I imagine the serial number assignment to the chassis would have a lead time of a few weeks (?) until the horn is shipped. Here is a serial number with some approximate documentation, as my brochure introducing the Rudy model is printed "March, 1928".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
"I had one that was not like others. It was an alto in about the 37,000 series ... I think it would be from the 1928 era. ..."

I think we need to have a closer look at the serials of the mid and late twenties. I begin with some serial numbers currently available of the Wiedoeft model:

C-mel.
16251 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model
20058 (!) (centrostudimusicali.it)
20xxx (!) (I try to confirm this by e-mail contact with the owner)
25444
26648

Soprano
32938
34xxx
34995
36077

Alto
34085
34384
34765
34996
35210
35418
35664
35814
35947
36480
36xxx
36979
37xxx
37090
37172
38475

Tenor
32704 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft'
34507
38xxx

Bariton
34610
34667

All numbers of the C-melody's (Rudy Wiedoeft!) begin with a "2", all other begin with a "3". My conclusion: We have to differenciate between C-melody and the rest of the Wiedoeft-family! Consider that the C-melody's listed above have bumper posts under the LH palm keys, which generally disappeared in the mid-twentys.

Felix

[soybean]

Felix this is valuable new information. I feel like we may be on the way to cracking the code! By the way, my C-melody is 22051 (not a Wiedoeft) and has the bumper post.

From your list we can see that the second number is usually an even number, but not always since there is a 5 and a 7.


[posted next day]

Well, it was nice while it lasted. A Holton alto just showed up on ebay with the serial 23648. So most of the numbers starting with a 2 are C-melody saxes, but not all. The mystery continues…

photos of the alto in question.





http://cgi.ebay.com/1920s-Frank-Holt...d=p3286.c0.m14

[LaPorte]

Well, it was nice while it lasted. A Holton alto just showed up on ebay with the serial 23648. So most of the numbers starting with a 2 are C-melody saxes, but not all. The mystery continues…

The alto shown here is a Revelation model, no Wiedoeft. Holton started with the Revelation 1917 in Chicago with SN# 1, from spring 1918 in Elkhorn with a Number >ca.1,200.

Shure, there could be a R.Wiedoeft alto with a SN beginning with a 2 (possibly late 2x,xxx) and a R.W. C-melody beginning with a 3. That wouldn't seriously question my conclusion, which says that the R.W. C-melody was introduced significantly earlier than the rest of the Rudy Wiedoeft line. So bruce bailey could be right stating that a SN# 37xxx was made in 1928 and jazzbug1 could be right too when he claims that the R.W.model was introduced spring 1928, except the C-melody (which obviously was introduced about 3 years earlier)!

The Revelation model is not considered here.

Felix

[soybean]

Oh, I see. I thought you were saying that all the Holton C-melody started with a 2. So the Wiedoeft saxes had their own set of serial numbers?

[LaPorte]

Oh, I see. I thought you were saying that all the Holton C-melody started with a 2. So the Wiedoeft saxes had their own set of serial numbers?

Revelation, Wiedoeft model and CollegiateI had the same or a common set of serial numbers except very, very rare saxphones (CollegiateI) which were stamped by the Lyon&Healy company just when the production in LaPorte was sold to Frank Holton April 1928. These numbers could be recognised by a six digit 202xxx, written in a straight line, not in an arc! CollegiateII started with an own set of numbers, later (ca.1931/32) they were integrated in the main line of saxophone serial numbers. I'll come back to this topic.

Felix

[LaPorte]

except very, very rare saxphones which were stamped by the Lyon&Healy company just when the production was sold to Frank Holton April 1928. These numbers could be recognised by a six digit 202xxx, written in a straight line, not in an arc!

Here it is (coincidence?!):

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-Bb-COLLE...QQcmdZViewItem

A real rare find and reference too (SN#201849 for dating the Lyon&Healy SN##)!

made by Frank Holton ca. April 1928 in LaPorte, application and serial number: Lyon &Healy, the saxophone was originally created by Ernst Albert Couturier!

Felix

[bruce bailey]

I just sold a L&H soprano just like that and the serial number was in about the same range. I think it was within 50 numbers. It had all the extra keys like the Holton. Should be a good horn.
I just finished my Holton C soprano keyed to high F and so far I would say it is the best C soprano I have ever played. A bit flat on B2 and C2 but not really any worse than any other 20s horn. I am selling off several Holtons and was going to include it but I think I will hang on to it for a while!!!

[LaPorte]

I just sold a L&H soprano just like that and the serial number was in about the same range.

Right, there is no difference except the engraving. Additional info: After purchasing the Lyon&Healy plant in LaPorte by Fank Holton the production of saxophones under the Lyon&Healy brand didn't stop. The output was indeed higher than Holton's 'Collegiate', a real curiosity! The L&H numbers went until 203xxx (ca. 40xxx on the Collegiate's) when the doors were closed forever in 1929.

So we have a relatively small period of time the LaPorte made Collegiates were built. Their serial numbers (Holton-line!) give important indications for the Holton serial number reconstruction. On these (and several other) grounds (e.g.) a R.W. C-melody with a number early or mid 20xxx can't be made in 1928. The earliest ones were made ca. 1925 based on the C-soprano reference from jazzbug 1.

It had all the extra keys like the Holton.

'Extra keys' on LaPorte made saxophones?

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Extra keys would be the L shaped G#>C# pinky and the little tangs under the palm keys to connect them. The Eb opens the D, the F opens the Eb.

[soybean]

Bruce, please post photos of the C soprano if you have some.

[bruce bailey]

Give me a few weeks.....kind of behind here with school starting.

[soybean]

No pressure, man. Just curious.

[bruce bailey]

I finally opened up some cases and got the serial numbers of Holtons I now have. There was the Courturier one I sold in the 37,000 range plus the following:
C soprano to high F......16741
Satin Gold Alto............20395
Burnished Gold Alto......27096
Burnished Gold Rudy Alto 38475 R

The Altos all have the usual extra keys. Only the Rudy has the extra low C pad and tunable neck. Everything except the C soprano is for sale.

[LaPorte]

I've adapted the SN# of the 'Rudy' to the list above. Thank you, bruce bailey!

Felix

[bruce bailey]

Notice how the altos are in the 20,xxx range.

[LaPorte]

Who made the alto? When was it made? Why did Holton sell a stencil? Why does it say Chicago instead of Elkhorn?

I owe you the answers.

1. The saxophone was made by Couesnon, which can undoubtfully be recognised by a special design of the joint rings and some more details.

2. The catalogue "Manufacture Generale d'instrument de musique COUESNON. Catalogue illustre 1934, Paris 1934." distinguishes 4 models (see the corresponding thread!): A,B,C and Monopole/Conservatoire. Each model had probably his own set of numbers. Supposing a yearly output of 1,000 per year and model a possible year of manufacture is around 1942. This would correspond to the layout of the mechanic and design. This saxophone is a "B"-model as the SN# begins with this letter.

My answers 3. and 4. are more or less speculative. Anyone interested?

Felix

[LaPorte]

Notice how the altos are in the 20,xxx range.

Your altos are Revelation model's? Contrary to the Rudy Wiedoeft's they were not limited to a certain range of numbers.

I'll soon begin a list of LaPorte made CollegiateI. I think this would be instructive, too.

Felix