Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

[LaPorte]

Do you remember the 'Holton Loyalist' with some interesting historical stuff?
And - poof! - it disappeared without any comment for at least half a year.

The Holton Loyalist is back now!

http://www.holtonloyalist.com/

nearly unchanged (and unrevised) as far as I remember correctly.

[geauxsax]

Ganz gut!

I'm glad to see the Loyalist back online. Did you notice in the catalog section the 1948 listing of available models? 232 and 233 altos concurrently (232 is $25 more), also 241 Tenor and 271 Bari.

Vielen dank!

[MoonMind]

Just for the record (I know this is nothing special): I own a Holton Collegiate 577 Tenor, serial #259xxx. The horn as seen lots of tough action and is now in a rather dubious condition (lesser parts like protectors keep falling of - I hope this doesn't continue, it makes performing a little difficult), and the upper part of the keywork feels pretty awkward to me (I have smallish hands with rather short fingers, it's hard for me to not touch the huge palm keys by accident). This isn't a loud horn, but overall the sound's nicely balanced, and with the help of a Berg Larsen Bullet mouthpiece, intonation's not too hard to get right.

But this looks interesting: Has anyone noticed this horn and would care to comment on it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/C-MELODY-SAX-HOL...3286.m20.l1116

M.

[geauxsax]

I'd pass on that one. The finish looks very rough, and I see solder on the neck, above where it fits in the tenon--neck may have pull down too. It has the Holton "extra keys" (a plus), but no front F. I'm all for folks getting Holtons, but I think you can do better than this example. Heck, a Rudy tenor just sold for $250 on Thursday (poss relaq though?), and a nice mid-20's Revelation/Elkhorn with extra keys and front F went for $150. Keep looking.

[MoonMind]

Thanks! I thought as much - but I can only judge things by looking at my horn; it's in even worse shape... I'll keep my eyes open.

M.

[LaPorte]

I'm glad to see the Loyalist back online. Did you notice in the catalog section the 1948 listing of available models?

Guter Hinweis (good advice), geauxsax, Danke!

Felix

[geauxsax]

Two fairly early "566" model Collegiates on ebay currently. Must have been right after they started calling them 566's:

217095 (lacquered brass)
263791 (silver)--not sure why the "mercedes" key guard. Looks like it may have been soldered on later as a replacement.

Also, an ancient tenor: sn 621. no typo--just 621.
http://cgi.ebay.com/FRANK-HOLTON-CO-...d=p3286.c0.m14

he's got a pic on the ad to prove it too.

[LaPorte]

Photo of the 274 bari mentioned by Geauxsax.

Presenting an automatically opening photo seems to be very useful e.g. when the posting contains a text related to the photo. Is anybody kind enough to explain how to change the link accordingly? Thanks

[LaPorte]

O.K. I've found out (#23):

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthr...97#post1222397

[jazzbug1]

Contrary to the info in the ad- Wiedoeft had nothing to do with any Holton design. Most ideas were "borrowed" from Buffet. I agree the price is high. Especially if you pay $500-600 for polishing and re-padding. My Holton C melodys, fully re-done and ready to play, typically sell for about $300 on EBay. A "Glittercatzz" horn is gig-tested and set up to play well. I will be listing a few this fall-winter. Never pay $300 for a C melody that needs a complete re-build, unless it is a gold-plated highly engraved artist model. I also agree that the front F is a handy feature. There is currently a late Martin C melody on EBay with the front F. These are good blues horns due to their large bore. Hey- I can be a large bore!

[geauxsax]

'Bug,
Give us here a heads up when you list the horns!

[Walter Webb]

The Holton Loyalist is very nice, but it needs us to send good pictures, and more! BTW, my Holton C melody sax is ser #24383, with front F. It seems to vibrate more than my Conn of the same era, and is surely less stuffy.
Coming soon, in a new thread: The big C mel shootout, wherein we compare Conn and Holton in a series of tests.

[jazzbug1]

I can't wait. Conn owners will cry in their horns. Oddly enough, whereas 2 years ago Conns were selling at premium prices ($300-600.00). Now they are down considerably, where Holtons are up in price. Conn altos, tenors, sopranos, etc. from the 1920s are fine horns, but they chose a small bore for their C melody and the horns sound tubby and lack the projection of most others. Too bad Aquilasax chose the Conn to base their design on. Don't forget Couturier, who made very impressive Cs and huge bore altos that roared. Still can't beat the Conn Chu Berry baritone. Gerry Mulligan agreed.

[LaPorte]

Riddle for the professionals!

On new researches I met this mysterious alto saxophone, sold 2007 (not ebay). The seller gives the info: SN#5483. Given that is correct, which new aspects of Holton history does it tell? Who's cracking the nut?

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/h...c76045cc02.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/h...c76045cc03.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/h...c76045cc04.jpg

I'm back on Sunday

Felix

[soybean]

Coming soon, in a new thread: The big C mel shootout, wherein we compare Conn and Holton in a series of tests.

Maybe you saw my C-mel shootout where i compared Holton, King and Buescher horns. Problem is; i don't remember if it was posted here or on the old C-mel website that doesn't exist anymore.

[Walter Webb]

Maybe you saw my C-mel shootout where i compared Holton, King and Buescher horns. Problem is; i don't remember if it was posted here or on the old C-mel website that doesn't exist anymore.

Perhaps you could summarize your findings, what you learned when comparing those three brands of C mel.

I would say that the 1921 Conn is much more resistant to blowing, is more stuffy, but puts out a darker more ballsy sound than the Holton. The Holton feels light and responsive, easy blowing, better in tune, and the notes just pop out. In short: Conn=Stuffy, Holton=Fluffy.

[Walter Webb]

Maybe you saw my C-mel shootout where i compared Holton, King and Buescher horns. Problem is; i don't remember if it was posted here or on the old C-mel website that doesn't exist anymore.

Perhaps you could summarize your findings, what you learned when comparing those three brands of C mel.

I would say that the 1921 Conn is much more resistant to blowing, is more stuffy, but puts out a darker more ballsy sound than the Holton. The Holton feels light and responsive, easy blowing, better in tune, and the notes just pop out. In short: Conn=Stuffy, Holton=Fluffy.

[LaPorte]

#574

Short answer:

Ca. the first two years (1918/1919) no saxophones were
produced in Elkhorn. Tooling remained in Chicago.
Many people employed were needed in Elkhorn to do new jobs.

While the factory in Elkhorn was prepared for civil
purposes only (probably early in 1920) the production of
saxophones continued initially in Chicago later in Elkhorn.

Sources (There are more info I've considered in my conclusion)

1) #508, page 26

"The following list has served its purpose, too as it shows that ca. 4,500 serial numbers are fictious. That means Frank Holton did not produce saxophones in Elkhorn 1918 and 1919. There never will be found a Holton saxophone e.g. with the SN 3177.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPorte
Early Serial Numbers

Made by
Frank Holton Co.
Chicago

# 639 Eb alto
# 759 Eb alto
# 848 Bb tenor
# 1169 C-melody s.p. 'deluxe'-engraving
# 1189 Eb alto
# 1200 Eb alto
# 5483 Eb alto


Made by
Frank Holton Co.
Elkhorn
WIS

C-melody

#6196 sp
#7686 sp
#8517 sp
#9501 sp
#9799 sp

Alto

#6311 sp"

2) This Chicago made Alto SN#5483 (including front F)

3) #344-349, page 18 SOTW-forum

4) http://www.holtonloyalist.com/history.htm

"1918 Moved to Elkhorn, WI in Spring of 1918; 4

Frank Holton & Co.
Elkhorn, WI

The Janesville Daily Gazette
April 18, 1918

BAND INSTRUMENT FACTORY TO OPEN IN ELKHORN MONDAY Elkhorn, April 12.

The little city of Elkhorn, the county seat of Walworth county, is the new home of Frank Holton & Company, largest exclusive manufacturers of band instruments in the United States. The Holton company was formerly in Chicago, but moved into their new building in Elkhorn this week, where they will formally open for business Monday morning.

More than a year ago a committee of several of Elkhorn's business men investigated the proposition of inducing the band instrument factory to move from Chicago to Elkhorn. The matter was laid before the citizen's of the city, who agreed that it was Elkhorn's great opportunity, and accordingly a modern building was built, to be turned over to the factory, and becomes eventually the property of Frank Holton & Co.

Frank Holton & Company is an old established business, employing more than 200 people, and advanced far beyond the experimental stage. For several years the owners of the business had been planning to move the factory away from Chicago, and labor difficulties, and were induced to choose Elkhorn, though they had many tempting offers made them by other progressive cities.

The first carload of machinery arrived from Chicago Tuesday evening, draw and is being received at the rate “of three and four carloads daily.” A total of 85 carloads of machinery must be moved. Fifteen erecting machinists are at work installing the equipment fast as it arrives, and within a few days the entire plant will be in operation. The business office fixtures and office crew will arrive in Elkhorn Saturday, and the factory will open for business Monday morning. For a few months the help situation will prevent the factory from turning out a normal quantity of instruments. Many of the workmen did not wish to move from Chicago to a smaller town, so there is quite a shortage of help, both skilled and unskilled.

Like most small inland cities, Elkhorn is not adapted to large factories, especially those that would have large freight shipments, or need immense quanties of water. The quantities of raw material that must be used in band instruments are not large, and the greater proportion of the cost of an instrument is represented by the skilled labor. The factory is equipped to take the raw material, manufacture the instrument, including the plating and engraving, and also make the packing cases.

One of the pleasing features about the factory is that a large band, under the direction of skilled musicians, is maintained at all times, available for various public gatherings.

1919
THE GRAND RAPIDS XXX, GRAND RAPIDS, WB.
6/12/1919

Elkhorn— Frank Holton, president of Frank Holton & Co., will build twenty-five new houses on property recently purchased of O. B. Rogers in the north part of the city. Work will start soon and it is expected that the houses will be completed before winter.

The houses will be modern five and six room bungalows costing from $3,000 to $4,000, and all will have different exteriors."

5) http://content.wisconsinhistory.org/...CISOSHOW=30117 (page 6)

[jazzbug1]

That's what my house cost new in 1921. It is a Craftsman style bungalow. I wonder if the Holton bungalows had black exteriors and bright-colored plush-lined interior walls?
Seriously, Mr. LaPorte, thanks again for the interesting research.

[goodsax]

Two fairly early "566" model Collegiates on ebay currently. Must have been right after they started calling them 566's:

217095 (lacquered brass)...

The lacquered brass 566 might be the Collegiate I won on eBay 7/19/09 with serial number 566 362143. I bid on it because my first alto, given to me on my 9th birthday in 1950, was a Holton Collegiate very similar to this one. I still have this one, but don't play it much.