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Thread: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

  1. #341
    Content Expert/Distinguished SOTW Member LaPorte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    The 'Rudy Wiedoeft model' engraving disappeared late in 1930 between SN #38514 and #38524! See new tenor in post #292, page 15.

    Felix
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    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Here's one for LaPorte. A C-melody with serial number 209xx. The front 'F' key seems to be a different design.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Frank-Holton-C-M...3A1|240%3A1308
    Life is too short for long tones

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/i...t=P1080343.jpg

    Hmm.. what I see within the area in question is a high 'E' key and a mpc cap. I'm afraid I dont know the answer.

    Here is a spatula front 'F' key (last photo) on an early Conn alto, apparently no genuine Holton idea:

    http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA:IT&ih=016
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

  4. #344
    Content Expert/Distinguished SOTW Member LaPorte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Wanted! I've seen a bulk of Holton serial numbers, but there never had been numbers between 1.200 and ca. 5500.

    That means there is a gap of around two years!

    Where are those saxophones, made between spring 1918 and mid 1920?

    Who owns or knows of a Holton saxophone built around 1919?

    Any info or idea?

    Felix
    Last edited by LaPorte; 02-09-2009 at 05:33 PM.
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

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    Insert cutesy caption du jour here TommyD69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Quote Originally Posted by LaPorte View Post
    Wanted! I've seen a bulk of Holton serial numbers, but there never had been numbers between 1.200 and ca. 5500.

    That means there is a gap of around two years!

    Where are the saxophones made between spring 1918 and mid 1920?

    Who owns or knows of a Holton saxophone built around 1919?

    Any info or idea?

    Felix



    World War I?
    Musical Theory of Relativity: E=Fb

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Quote Originally Posted by TommyD69 View Post
    World War I?
    Perhaps the factory was pressed into wartime work. Perhaps making metal parts for…?
    Life is too short for long tones

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Quote Originally Posted by soybean View Post
    Perhaps the factory was pressed into wartime work. Perhaps making metal parts for…?
    This might be a firm lead, as it would explain some contradictory info's about Holton history.

    To narrow down the time Holton continued producing saxophones, I would like to suggest a registry for low Holton serial numbers - only four digit numbers.

    Do you think this might be helpful?

    Felix
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

  8. #348
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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    During WW I war production was not shut down as much as WW II and it was really a short period of time.

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
    During WW I war production was not shut down as much as WW II and it was really a short period of time.
    I agree with this statement. We don't hear much about factories in the USA being converted to wartime production during WW1. However, it seems possible that Holton was involved since they were metal workers. Or perhaps they simply stopped production during this period.
    Life is too short for long tones

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    **Big News!**

    I just saw the latest draft of Felix' (LaPorte) Holton Serial Number chart. It is wonderful! The first accurate serial number list for Holton saxes. This will be a very valuable document for anyone interested in early Holton saxophones or the history of saxophones in general. It will be a "sticky" at the top of this page very soon.
    Life is too short for long tones

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    WW I for America was Spring, 1917 to November, 1918. The munitions, guns, clothing makers kept up well with the needs, so other companies were not converted as in WW II. Looking at the number of U.S. military horns dating from the WW I era, the instrument makers were busy. I can't explain the missing serial numbers, other than maybe Holton never assigned these numbers to a product, as something should show up in this range. Maybe they are only brass horns, which most of us would overlook.

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Take note of EBay #320338790081 for a Holton baritone sax. The serial # is 30287, which places it in the Wiedoeft era. It has the low C breather key. The engraving is not very visible and the usual "Rudy Wiedoeft Model" banner is not on the usual location on the right side of the bell. I've seen a few post Wiedoeft (circa 1931) horns with this feature, but the 30,000 serial # places it squarely in 1929. Could this be an elusive Wiedoeft baritone with a non-standard engraving? The only Wiedoeft baritone I've ever seen had the standard engraving. A very unusual horn, even in rough shape, and without a neck. Hope it gets a good home.

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbug1 View Post
    Take note of EBay #320338790081 for a Holton baritone sax. The serial # is 30287, which places it in the Wiedoeft era. It has the low C breather key. The engraving is not very visible and the usual "Rudy Wiedoeft Model" banner is not on the usual location on the right side of the bell. I've seen a few post Wiedoeft (circa 1931) horns with this feature, but the 30,000 serial # places it squarely in 1929. Could this be an elusive Wiedoeft baritone with a non-standard engraving? The only Wiedoeft baritone I've ever seen had the standard engraving. A very unusual horn, even in rough shape, and without a neck. Hope it gets a good home.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...arch%26fvi%3D1

    Interesting find, Mr. Jazzbug1! It's a pre-Rudy Wiedoeft horn without 'RudyWiedoeft model' banner, built in late 1927.

    #292, page 15 updated.
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

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    Content Expert/Distinguished SOTW Member LaPorte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Trumpet mouthpieces, peashooters and guns...
    http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/B...ackground.html
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    OK, you Holton Sax fanatics. Here is a split bell-key, high serial number (#39620 with R and Eb) Rudy Key Low C vent, No Rudy Wiedoeft Banner on the bell, plus the usual master keys and a spatula hi F. What's with that? Why doesn't it have the Bell Keys on one side? Please chime in with some clarification.

    I have a typical Elhart, Wisconsin alto #25677. It plays really sweet, with a lot of flexibility from soft to loud. Middle C down to A seem weak and stuffy, and I donpt know why. Iit has the hi F key posts soldered in and threaded, but no spatula, rod or lifter parts. Maybe the factory used a body with those posts and didn't install the hi F parts. Maybe someone removed them for some idiotic reason, and tossed them into the bushes. God only knows what has been done to these horns over the years.

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Sorry: here is the link to see it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=110349891309

    Forgot to mention that the G# key is not a circular pearl like the Rudy, but the older rounded rectangle thingie.
    Walter

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Welcome to SOTW. To classify this Holton (SN#39620) alto I apply to a "PROFESSIONAL" model, recently discussed here:

    Quote Originally Posted by soybean View Post
    Some cool Holtons have really been turning up lately. Here's another one. Have you ever seen a "Professional" model? It's an alto on ebay. Serial number 39608 and has the single letter R as in Rudy. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=380091787642



    C/Eb keys made from tooling brought over from LaPorte:



    "master" keys:



    serial and 'R'



    keyguard:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LaPorte
    "HOLTON alto saxophone, the 'PROFESSIONAL'

    engraving:
    PROFESSIONAL
    HOLTON
    ELKHORN
    WIS

    *rare floral engraving found until now on one other saxophone (bari series 270)
    *new 'HOLTON'-characters
    *no 'made by'
    *serial number #39603 (one of the highest 5 digit numbers seen)
    *additional 'R' usually seen on the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model', but
    *no specific 'Rudy'-features (C-vent key, neck with tuning-slide mpc receiver) except
    *LH bell keys
    *'masterkeys' like on all Revelation I and R.W.mod.
    *new LH pinky key-table
    *LaPorte type RH pinky keys and joint rings
    *new keygards (LH bell keys)
    *new bow protector
    ...
    My conclusions in short:
    Made 1931 during the depression from available tooling (no money for new machines!). The contract with Rudy Wiedoeft was just released, but there had been some body tubes already stamped with an 'R' and a serial number higher than any R.W. model. At the same time Holton experimented to create new models to meet the needs of the market. The 'PROFESSIONAL' could be regarded as a precurser of the 203/204 (ResoTone) although there are many differences.

    The phase of experimentation can be reckoned also by the fact, that short after the 'PRO' Holton produced some 'technical' R.W. models without according engraving (e.g. SN #40145). There were no legal issues as the 'Rudy Wiedoeft model' was a pure Holton design with a Holton patent (R.W. was a player, no technician or designer). During the depression Holton might have produced professional saxophones mainly by customer's order."

    The existance of the alto SN#39620, which is only 17 numbers higher than the 'PROFESSIONAL' confirms the conclusions given above.

    Basically the 1931 made alto SN 39620 is a Revelation Ib (see model list #80, page4) including additional C-vent key.

    Interesting fact: The 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model - introduced 1927 - is virtually the same (C-vent key, split bell), see the bariton jazzbug1 found on ebay:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...arch%26fvi%3D1

    Felix
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

  18. #358
    Content Expert/Distinguished SOTW Member LaPorte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Webb View Post

    I have a typical Elhart, Wisconsin alto #25677. It plays really sweet, with a lot of flexibility from soft to loud. Middle C down to A seem weak and stuffy, and I donpt know why. Iit has the hi F key posts soldered in and threaded, but no spatula, rod or lifter parts. Maybe the factory used a body with those posts and didn't install the hi F parts. Maybe someone removed them for some idiotic reason, and tossed them into the bushes. God only knows what has been done to these horns over the years.
    Your alto is a 'Revelation' model (Ib) built 1926, short after reintroducing spatula front 'F' key (1925/1926) by Holton. Seems that somebody removed it later. Hope you find a 'parts-horn' for replacement.

    Felix
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

  19. #359
    Content Expert/Distinguished SOTW Member LaPorte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/h...922/1405_1.jpg
    http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/h...922/13b8_1.jpg

    The engraving of this COLLEGIATE clarinet SN#13940 indicates, that it was built in the CollegiateI era (1928-1930/31). COLLEGIATE I saxophone numbers range from 31xxx until 39xxx which shows that Holton used separate numbering for saxophones and other woodwind.

    Felix
    Couturier straight soprano > Claude Lakey 7* > Vandoren java / marca jazz 2.0
    Couturier alto > Jody Jazz esp 8 > m.a.r.c.a. jazz 2.0
    Couturier tenor> Jody Jazz esp 7* > m.a.r.c.a jazz 2.5


    "Why would I play on an ordinary, modern horn if it doesn't bring any special character to the music?" Al Mc Lean

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    Default Re: Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

    I shall refer to saxes like this as "FrankenRudy," after the Dear Dr Frankenstein, who assembled and breathed life into various human body parts taken from the cemetary.

    I wonder why it has the split bell keys, when it seems all the altos bell keys had gone to one side? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=110349891309
    Why? Because they had some old Revelation 1b bells on the shelf that needed to be used up.....or an old fashioned customer ordered one and said, "I want the split bell keys, not on one side." Does the horn work any better with bell keys on one side? Split bell keys were abandoned by everyone in the 30's, so what would the advantage be to having them split?

    I am thinking that many of these bows, bells, necks and body tubes were interchangeable, which allowed them to assemble a sax off the parts shelf--this bow with C vent with that bell with split keys, with that sliding sleeve neck, with these stacks that go with that bell.

    If you were crazy, you could unsolder all the parts of your Holton saxes from this era, and reassemble your own FrankenRudy. Crazy yes, I am, but not that completely insane.

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