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Holton Saxophone; Serial number registry

442K views 926 replies 124 participants last post by  OrlandoAlex 
#1 · (Edited)
It's been pointed out by a few people here, including Bruce Bailey, that Holton sax serial number lists on the internet are not correct. It sure would be nice to have an accurate list. To help this problem, I'm starting this registry.

Everyone please list the number on your horn and specifically what the features are. In the future, it might be possible to make a better list of serial numbers from what we do here. I'll start out with my C-melody, some serials from this board and then some pertinent quotes from others.

#22051
"Frank Holton, Elkhorn, Wis."
Silver plate, C-melody with lots of extra keys including front F. Has opposing bell keys (butterfly style)
I'm guessing it's between 1925-1929.

#27422
"silver plate alto with 'extra' keys."

#118552 "made in 1935 (?) Frank Holton & Co. tenor sax that has - made by Revelation.. above the Holton name.

[by the way, if any of you have an original sales receipt in the sax case, please list the date of sale]

Bernards20040 said:
Holton… satin gold plated tenor with polished gold plated keys and polished inside the bell serial No 89XX so i'm guessing pretty early. It has no engraving apart from frank Holton etc (nothing ornate)
it has soldered but not bevelled tone holes,
has the extra C# and G trill keys (i think thats right.)
Sax_Pete: "Frank Holton soprano serial 39xxx"

Bruce Baily: "Handcraft clone #37xxx and every bit as good as a real Martin"

"holton baritone sax, silvered, serial #14xxx"

TenTenTooter: "The tenor has soldered tone holes, Eb fork fingering, G# trill, high D trill, serial number either 11xx or 11xxx."

beboplawyer: "Holton model 241 Tenor from 1948 (?) Serial 195***"

hafuch: "I've been playing a silver-plated Holton tenor model 243 (sn 277xxx) from 1955 (?), and I have rarely played its equal."

fredj608: "Soprano. it's nickel-plated and the main part, not the keys and action, is sandblasted. Made by Frank Holton and Co, Elkhorn Wis engraved on the bell-front, and "Bb 18782" and the letters L P widely spaced on the bell-back."

tommyr: "I have been playing an old Holton since at least 1975. It has withstood many bumps on the way. It has a better tone than any other soprano I have tried.It has the high F key . Many question the year, and I have no idea other than a sreial # of 32560."

bruce bailey said:
I have never found an accurate Holton list. I have a Holton Alto that is a Martin stencil that would be from 1917 according to most lists but it has the tone hole style that Martin started using in 1923 and the G# lever that Lyon & Healy (another Martin stencil) started in around 1927. Bottom line, compare some features to determine the year like front F, etc. Remember that opposing bell keys disappeared around the early 30s. Also the Rudy Weidoft models have LH bell keys and most numbers fall in the teens from lists I have seen.
blackfrancis said:
Serial number charts indicate my horn was built in 1912.(They all look like they're quoting the same source.) My bell says "Frank Holton Elkhorn Wisconsin". Reliable information has it that Holton moved to Elkhorn in 1918. …how do we account for the bell engraving that, if made in 1912, should read Chicago?
Farina_man said:
I have 2 Weidoeft altos which date to 1916/1917 on all the lists I have seen. My Holton Tenor dates to 1912 and my baritone to 1915. However, I recently got an original Holton brochure which describes the "New" Rudy Weidoeft Holtons in detail (extra keys and all!) and quite clearly dates them to the late 1920's - which goes with the LH bell keys, too. A bit mysterious.
Incidentally, all my Holtons are inscribed "Elkhorn, Wis." although (supposedly) dating to before 1918.
As to the way they play - I reckon the ordinary Holtons play better than the RW which has a very slow/clumsy G#. My tenor, although not in brilliant cosmetic condition, plays well in tune with a warm vintage sound. The angle of the crook is uncomfortable, though. Another good point about Holtons is that they very often have a front high F key.
paulwl said:
The Wiedoeft models started to appear in the late 20s but didn't do terribly well in the market. Holtons had had many of the same special features for years previously. (Some horns had the) "Master Key" features (alternate trill keys), and the venting or speaker key down by low C. I'm not sure what was added to the Wiedoeft models; maybe someone else can chip in there.
Ahh "Master Key"- now i know what to call them!
paulwl said:
Wasn't Beaufort a student line, like Collegiate later on? I had thought the pro line before the Rudys was called Revelation. In any case, a lot of pre-Rudys are just marked Frank Holton & Co. / [location, see below].

I recently saw a tenor in NYC similar to the above, but without the speaker key, and engraved Chicago instead of Elkhorn, Wis. as most Holtons were. (Chicago marking would date it pre-1917, Elkhorn, post-1917.)
bruce bailey said:
Some [Holton saxes] are great, others not great. I have found that they tended to have models made by them (the ones with the added C# trill and clarinet style front F) and some made by others. I had an alto that was a Courturier stencil that was like a Lyon & Healy with Martin style tone holes. What I DO know is that the serial number lists are way off. Mine was from around 1928 but the serial number came back as a 1917 horn. Go by style and features not by the numbers. The made a lot of gold plated ones and some of the gold plated sopranos are really nice. I have seen several in C.
 
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#573 ·
I can't wait. Conn owners will cry in their horns. Oddly enough, whereas 2 years ago Conns were selling at premium prices ($300-600.00). Now they are down considerably, where Holtons are up in price. Conn altos, tenors, sopranos, etc. from the 1920s are fine horns, but they chose a small bore for their C melody and the horns sound tubby and lack the projection of most others. Too bad Aquilasax chose the Conn to base their design on. Don't forget Couturier, who made very impressive Cs and huge bore altos that roared. Still can't beat the Conn Chu Berry baritone. Gerry Mulligan agreed.
 
#574 ·
Riddle for the professionals!

On new researches I met this mysterious alto saxophone, sold 2007 (not ebay). The seller gives the info: SN#5483. Given that is correct, which new aspects of Holton history does it tell? Who's cracking the nut?

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/1_9caae209f42c026a1195c78c76045cc02.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/1_9caae209f42c026a1195c78c76045cc03.jpg

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/1_9caae209f42c026a1195c78c76045cc04.jpg

I'm back on Sunday

Felix
 
#578 ·
#574

Short answer:

Ca. the first two years (1918/1919) no saxophones were
produced in Elkhorn. Tooling remained in Chicago.
Many people employed were needed in Elkhorn to do new jobs.

While the factory in Elkhorn was prepared for civil
purposes only (probably early in 1920) the production of
saxophones continued initially in Chicago later in Elkhorn.

Sources (There are more info I've considered in my conclusion)

1) #508, page 26

"The following list has served its purpose, too as it shows that ca. 4,500 serial numbers are fictious. That means Frank Holton did not produce saxophones in Elkhorn 1918 and 1919. There never will be found a Holton saxophone e.g. with the SN 3177.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPorte
Early Serial Numbers

Made by
Frank Holton Co.
Chicago

# 639 Eb alto
# 759 Eb alto
# 848 Bb tenor
# 1169 C-melody s.p. 'deluxe'-engraving
# 1189 Eb alto
# 1200 Eb alto
# 5483 Eb alto

Made by
Frank Holton Co.
Elkhorn
WIS

C-melody

#6196 sp
#7686 sp
#8517 sp
#9501 sp
#9799 sp

Alto

#6311 sp"

2) This Chicago made Alto SN#5483 (including front F)

3) #344-349, page 18 SOTW-forum

4) http://www.holtonloyalist.com/history.htm

"1918 Moved to Elkhorn, WI in Spring of 1918; 4

Frank Holton & Co.
Elkhorn, WI

The Janesville Daily Gazette
April 18, 1918

BAND INSTRUMENT FACTORY TO OPEN IN ELKHORN MONDAY Elkhorn, April 12.

The little city of Elkhorn, the county seat of Walworth county, is the new home of Frank Holton & Company, largest exclusive manufacturers of band instruments in the United States. The Holton company was formerly in Chicago, but moved into their new building in Elkhorn this week, where they will formally open for business Monday morning.

More than a year ago a committee of several of Elkhorn's business men investigated the proposition of inducing the band instrument factory to move from Chicago to Elkhorn. The matter was laid before the citizen's of the city, who agreed that it was Elkhorn's great opportunity, and accordingly a modern building was built, to be turned over to the factory, and becomes eventually the property of Frank Holton & Co.

Frank Holton & Company is an old established business, employing more than 200 people, and advanced far beyond the experimental stage. For several years the owners of the business had been planning to move the factory away from Chicago, and labor difficulties, and were induced to choose Elkhorn, though they had many tempting offers made them by other progressive cities.

The first carload of machinery arrived from Chicago Tuesday evening, draw and is being received at the rate "of three and four carloads daily." A total of 85 carloads of machinery must be moved. Fifteen erecting machinists are at work installing the equipment fast as it arrives, and within a few days the entire plant will be in operation. The business office fixtures and office crew will arrive in Elkhorn Saturday, and the factory will open for business Monday morning. For a few months the help situation will prevent the factory from turning out a normal quantity of instruments. Many of the workmen did not wish to move from Chicago to a smaller town, so there is quite a shortage of help, both skilled and unskilled.

Like most small inland cities, Elkhorn is not adapted to large factories, especially those that would have large freight shipments, or need immense quanties of water. The quantities of raw material that must be used in band instruments are not large, and the greater proportion of the cost of an instrument is represented by the skilled labor. The factory is equipped to take the raw material, manufacture the instrument, including the plating and engraving, and also make the packing cases.

One of the pleasing features about the factory is that a large band, under the direction of skilled musicians, is maintained at all times, available for various public gatherings.

1919
THE GRAND RAPIDS XXX, GRAND RAPIDS, WB.
6/12/1919

Elkhorn- Frank Holton, president of Frank Holton & Co., will build twenty-five new houses on property recently purchased of O. B. Rogers in the north part of the city. Work will start soon and it is expected that the houses will be completed before winter.

The houses will be modern five and six room bungalows costing from $3,000 to $4,000, and all will have different exteriors."

5) http://content.wisconsinhistory.org/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/tp&CISOPTR=30142&CISOSHOW=30117 (page 6)
 
#599 ·
Another piece of that history, this time with a proven serial number.
Highest number found on a Chicago made Holton #5639!
BTW including front F!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Frank-H...ultDomain_0?hash=item414a28d6e3#ht_500wt_1182

#574

Short answer:

Ca. the first two years (1918/1919) no saxophones were
produced in Elkhorn. Tooling remained in Chicago.
Many people employed were needed in Elkhorn to do new jobs.

While the factory in Elkhorn was prepared for civil
purposes only (probably early in 1920) the production of
saxophones continued initially in Chicago later in Elkhorn.

Sources (There are more info I've considered in my conclusion)

1) #508, page 26

"The following list has served its purpose, too as it shows that ca. 4,500 serial numbers are fictious. That means Frank Holton did not produce saxophones in Elkhorn 1918 and 1919. There never will be found a Holton saxophone e.g. with the SN 3177.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaPorte
Early Serial Numbers

Made by
Frank Holton Co.
Chicago

# 639 Eb alto
# 759 Eb alto
# 848 Bb tenor
# 1169 C-melody s.p. 'deluxe'-engraving
# 1189 Eb alto
# 1200 Eb alto
# 5483 Eb alto
# 5639 C-melody

Made by
Frank Holton Co.
Elkhorn
WIS

C-melody

#6196 sp
#7686 sp
#8517 sp
#9501 sp
#9799 sp

Alto

#6311 sp"
...
 
#579 ·
That's what my house cost new in 1921. It is a Craftsman style bungalow. I wonder if the Holton bungalows had black exteriors and bright-colored plush-lined interior walls?
Seriously, Mr. LaPorte, thanks again for the interesting research.
 
#581 · (Edited by Moderator)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Stencil...7ab6d863b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_12423wt_941

Conn, Buescher or other manufacturer?

The left pinky cluster looks Buescher to me. There are no beveled tone holes to point to Martin, nor RTH typical of Conns.

The left pinky cluster looks Buescher to me. There are no beveled tone holes to point to Martin, nor RTH typical of Conns.
Correctly analyzed!

So, is it made by Buescher?

Straight soprano saxophones are sometimes more difficult to identify as they are lacking joint rings which are often good giveways, too. In this case however we have those characteristic soldered-on toneholes (e.g. C, C#, B and Bb), which narrows the research down to the possible manufacturer.

Another indication: some toneholes (...F, E, D, also high B, Bb, C and G) are made of one common sheet of brass, soldered onto the body!*
http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/york_pads_3.jpg

I've analysed and classified all types of toneholes which can be found on vintage American saxophones.

Soldered-on Toneholes, unlike soldered-into-the-body-TH's (two types) or drawn TH's (three types)

1. Thick walled TH (all bevelled)

1.1 Martin type
1.2 LaPorte type (Couturier; Lyon&Healy; Holton COLLEGIATE I ..)
1.3 York type (very rare)

2. Thin walled TH (with a characteristic flat base)

2.1 York type (straight; made exclusively by York)
http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/york_bell_2.jpg
2.2 Buescher type (bevelled; patented by Buescher)

... ;)

* York patented

"York was awarded two saxophone patents concerning tone holes in the later part of the 1920s: 1690862 and 1673195. York alto saxophone 92259 is reported to have unusual tones holes, and the marking "pat. apld. for". These patents were applied for in 1925 and 1926. and granted Nov 6, 1928, and Jun 12, 1928, respectively." (Dr. John Swain, quoted on www.Horn-u-copia.net)

... Anyone know who built "York" saxophones?
That are the bare essentials. Not the whole story. Could we find out more about the obscure history of York made saxophones ...
http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/fischer.jpg

Yorks are tough to research, even here on SOTW. ...
... collecting all scattered contributions under a common title: > Other N-Z> York?

Nice pic - kind of makes you wonder who made the military and civilian coat backs. If you're going to start a York thread, let me know - I've got a York C-soprano very similar to the horn in question, with the same flanged lower toneholes and the stack toneholes all on a common flange. I'll try to dig it out tonight and get you some more info. I can't remember whether the LH pinky cluster is quite so Buescher-like - but the rest of the horn is distinctly different; I've got a Buescher C-sop that I can try to photograph next to it. Geauxsax, I need to get you the numbers off my baris (which are 271's, not the 274 that the better one was listed as on Ebay).

... My C-sop referred to above isn't a York, it's a Grand Rapids Band Instrument.
The Grand Rapids Band Instrument Co. is a subsidiary company of York.

If I could find my camera, I'd take some pictures. ...
I would be glad to see photos of your C soprano!:)

In order not to get too far Off Topic I'm going to start a York Research Thread provisionally under the title

> (Saxophone) Makes and Models > Misc. Saxophone Manufacturers
(better: > (Saxophone) Makes and Models > Other N-Z > York

very soon.

Good idea. York made some interesting horns, but never advertised in the professional market. I think Holton saxes, like York, would be better known if they had marketed them to professionals.

Good idea. York made some interesting horns, but never advertised in the professional market. I think Holton saxes, like York, would be better known if they had marketed them to professionals.
Thank you for the info, Mr. Jazzbug!

Here is a 270 bari from a French seller. I remember that unique floral engraving only from very few Holton saxophones e.g. the "Professional" we talked about.
http://cgi.ebay.fr/sax-baryton-holt...Vent?hash=item4144b98856&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
 
#583 ·
OK, the good 271 bari is 192xxx, the beater is 204xxx.

My C-sop referred to above isn't a York, it's a Grand Rapids Band Instrument. (It's been a while since I had it out) It has the exact same tonehole configuration as the Bb soprano in the earlier pics. The keywork is extremely similar to my Buescher. If I could find my camera, I'd take some pictures. Bloody thing's got to be around here somewhere.
 
#584 ·
OK, the good 271 bari is 192xxx, the beater is 204xxx.

My C-sop referred to above isn't a York, it's a Grand Rapids Band Instrument. (It's been a while since I had it out) It has the exact same tonehole configuration as the Bb soprano in the earlier pics. The keywork is extremely similar to my Buescher. If I could find my camera, I'd take some pictures. Bloody thing's got to be around here somewhere.
Awesome-thanks! added to my modern vintage list.
 
#585 ·
I got a C Melody today to match my C soprano so it is time to update the serial numbers:
C soprano, normal keywork, goes to high F, silver plated - 16741
Alto, all the extra keywork, non Rudy Gold plated, white roos - 29395
C Melody, Silver, all the extra keywork, non Rudy, original white pads - 9890
All have the original cases in great shape. I am selling all of these, jumping the Holton ship.....for now. That C soprano is the best in tune C I have ever played!
 
#586 ·
If the range of the tune avoided too many ledger lines, the C sop might be a semi-acceptable substitute for flute in some brief instances. Of course, you would be better able to address that possibility.

Btw, when and where are you selling these interesting pieces?
 
#589 ·
Today I was given a silver plated Holton Alto Sax, SN 14480. I have not taken the time to look through the 30 pages of responses to this thread so I don't know if there is a serial number list buried in this thread ? Or if the purpose of this thread is intended to build a serial number list.

The Sax that was givien to me is in somewhat poor condition, has been dropped hard on the bow and it looks like more than once. One rod pivot screw is missing as is the neck. The octave key operating lever is bent, probably due to someone not using the end plug at one point in time. The end plug was in the case ???

The keywork looks 'Martin-ish' to me although it does not have beveled tone holes.

It has two trill keys that I have never seen before, one is obviously a right hand G# trill key...the other one operates a key that is just below the high 'E' tonehole, operated by a players right hand index finger.

It has only minor plating wear on a few keys. Too bad about the the dents in the bow and I wish that it had its neck. (Why in the world would anyone separate a neck from a Saxophone ???)

Can anyone estimate the year of manufacture based on my serial number ? Or point me to the serial number list ?

Does anyone have an extra neck for a Holton Alto laying around ?
 
#590 ·
Today I was given a silver plated Holton Alto Sax, SN 14480. I have not taken the time to look through the 30 pages of responses to this thread so I don't know if there is a serial number list buried in this thread ? ...

Can anyone estimate the year of manufacture based on my serial number ? Or point me to the serial number list ?
http://vintage.saxontheweb.net/Holton.html

Your alto is a 'Revelation I' model, according to the SN Chart made in 1923, before reintroducing the front-F key.

I agree, the Holton SN list is difficult to find.
Is it possible to introduce a permanent link attached to this thread? Is there anyone who could help?

That would be great!:)

Felix
 
#592 ·
Felix,

Thank you for the information you posted, and the link to the serial number list. I have saved the .pdf file for my future reference.

In your other post I think you are offering to sell an entire Sax ?

I don't really want to buy a Holton Alto but would consider a neck only if reasonably priced.
 
#593 ·
#594 ·
'The Great Gretsch' Tenor #7720:



Any opinion?
 
#596 ·
Thank you, Bruce Baily! No 'Transitional' (CollegiateI/CollegiateII) as could be suspected at first sight. Interesting that Holton manufactured Tenor saxophones for Gretsch, too at the beginning thirties - one of the rare, possibly the only stencil Holton made for other companies. I'll come back to that topic as their serial numbers (early 'CollegiateII) are different from those Holton used on their first line.
 
#604 · (Edited)
First Pre-Rudy-Wiedoeft-Model-alto found. #32075

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Holton-...ultDomain_0?hash=item3a5533c91e#ht_961wt_1167

Rudy Wiedoeft model; Serial number registry:

C-mel.
16251 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model
20058 (!) (centrostudimusicali.it)
20xxx (!)
25444
26648
26678

Soprano
32938
34xxx
34995
36077

Alto
32075 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft
34085
34384
34489
347xx gl
34765
34792 g.pl.
34996
35210
35320
35418
35664
35814
35947
36336 s.p./goldplated keys
36480
36xxx
36599 sp
36604
36863 missing neck
36975
36979
37xxx
37090
37172
37352 sp
38475
39620 sp 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40127 gl 'Post-Rudy-Wiedoeft'
40145 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40185 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'

Tenor
32704 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft'
32764 sp Pre-Rudy-Wiedoft model
34507
34574 gold plated
38xxx
38514
38524 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'!

Bariton
30287 'Pre-RudyWiedoeft'
34610
34667
 
#645 · (Edited)
Rudy Wiedoeft model; Serial number registry:

C-mel.
16251 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model
20058 (!) (centrostudimusicali.it)
20xxx (!)
23310
25444
26648
26678

Soprano
32938
34xxx
34995
36077

Alto
32075 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft
34085
34384
34489
347xx gl
34765
34792 g.pl.
34996
35210
35320
35418
35664
35814
35947
36333 sp
36336 s.p./goldplated keys
36480
36xxx
36599 sp
36604
36863 missing neck
36975
36979
37xxx
37090
37172
37352 sp
38475
39188 sp
39620 sp 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40127 gl 'Post-Rudy-Wiedoeft'
40145 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40185 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'

Tenor
32704 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft'
32764 sp Pre-Rudy-Wiedoft model
34507
34574 gold plated
38xxx
38514
38524 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'!

Baritone
30287 'Pre-RudyWiedoeft'
34610
34667
Edited 06-08-2010
 
#606 ·
mine is a silver plated e flat alto sax with 'extra keys'. the serial number says 27418 LP with engravings that says "made by frank holton & co. Elkhorn Wisconsin." i am 15 and in high school band and it has some more keys then my other sax but seems in good condition. can anyone tell me if this is going to be a good horn for me as a 1st chair player in band? we only payed 186.52 dollars on Ebay so it wasn't to costly for 90 to 100 year old horn.
 
#608 ·
can anyone tell me if this is going to be a good horn for me as a 1st chair player in band?
Vintage saxes can be fine horns. However, if they have been sitting un-played for many years, they will often need work; especially new pads. If the pads are old, you will get many notes that are hard to play and leaks.
 
#607 ·
It should be just fine for your playing IF it is in good working order. I have a gold one about the same vintage and I could use it as my main alto. It is in mint condition so I really don't like to take it to a job as it could get damaged. Those extra keys can be nice mainly the C# trill that sticks up. Very handy. If you are playing the part to Sleigh Ride (Anderson), it makes that D>C#>D very smooth.
 
#609 ·
the horn does have 2 bent rods and needs some new pads. it will not play a G or anything under a low G, but it has a good sound and will play up to the high F. By any chance do you know if this horn has a high F# key or not because i have not ever played on a horn with 1 so i dont know what it looks like or where it is located at.:(
 
#614 ·
#616 · (Edited)
Box of Bricks: The evolution of the Wiedoeft Model:

First 'Wiedoeft Model' #33,235 lacking C-vent key!


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Frank-H...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3358fcab55

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Holton-...ultDomain_0?hash=item3a5533c91e#ht_961wt_1167

Rudy Wiedoeft model; Serial number registry:

C-mel.
16251 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft' model
20058 (!) (centrostudimusicali.it)
20xxx (!)
25444
26648
26678

Soprano
32938
34xxx
34995
36077

Alto
32075 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft
33235 lacking C-vent key
34085
34384
34489
347xx gl
34765
34792 g.pl.
34996
35210
35320
35418
35664
35814
35947
36336 s.p./goldplated keys
36480
36xxx
36599 sp
36604
36863 missing neck
36975
36979
37xxx
37090
37172
37352 sp
38475
39620 sp 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40127 gl 'Post-Rudy-Wiedoeft'
40145 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40185 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'
40349 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'

Tenor
32704 'Pre-Rudy Wiedoeft'
32764 sp Pre-Rudy-Wiedoft model
34507
38xxx
38514
38524 'Post-Rudy Wiedoeft'!

Bariton
30287 'Pre-RudyWiedoeft'
34610
34667[/QUOTE]
 
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