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A Comedy of Errors: Dolnet HP tenor

18K views 61 replies 21 participants last post by  milandro 
#1 ·
I post this with great trepidation, but I believe it is the right thing to do in the interests of transparency of my business and also passing on knowledge earned the hard/stupid way. Keep in mind that nobody but me lost money on this deal. I even refunded shipping charges, both ways.




It is with reddened face and sweaty palms that I report to you the following, the most humiliating experience of my career thus far- by a loooooong shot. The next worst was when I said "sex" instead of "sax" to a 50 year old female customer :shock:, which is peanuts in comparison.

I have recently made the biggest and dumbest mistake of my repair career. A comedy of errors that luckily in the end wasted only time and my money, vs. the money of others.

I purchased a Dolnet tenor on ebay (from the Netherlands) and overhauled it. I took it into work to have my coworkers playtest it, me not being a great tenor player. Having a violin repairman with perfect pitch in the room, we always use (or used to, anyways, as this story will illuminate) him for our tuner, with great success. His feedback was accurate and more illuminating than the tuner (he could even tell us about the intonation of the overtones in each note), so most times if he was around we just used him.

So, everyone proceeds to pass this particular horn around the shop with him listening. Octaves sound great, fifths, thirds, half steps, everything is very even and according to him very in tune up and down. He even goes so far as to remark how even it is for a saxophone. We continue to pass it around, playing it for fun, and put it back in its case. Everyone loves the horn. I play a few arpeggios and octaves myself, and satisfied, I try to find a neck plug for it to put it away in its case. I have an original 10m neckplug, and it is too small, rattling around in the receiver. Wow, I think to myself, this is a large bore horn.

A few days later a moderately well-known recording artist drops in and tries it out in a practice room with a tuner (although for reasons that will be seen later, I don't think he turned it on) for about a half hour. Loves it, but decides not to buy.

A week or so later, one of my coworkers borrows the horn for a gig. Forgetting his mouthpiece bag at home, he has to borrow a mouthpiece from a maker he doesn't like. He has trouble playing in tune all night, but manages to play it well enough that his troubles are not noticed by the rest of the band. Tells me about it the next morning in the context of how much X mouthpiece maker sucks.

A friend of mine borrows the horn to play around with. He takes it home and keeps it for a few days. Reports back that it is badass.

A while later I sell the horn to a guy I haven't met, but who is a SOTW member. He reports intonation problems and returns it. He asks if it could be high pitch. I seriously doubt it, I say. No marking on the body indicating that, and the bore is larger than a 10m! We do another deal on something else and part ways amicably, but each of us sort of thinks quietly that the other one is wrong about the Dolnet.

I get the horn back, and everyone in the shop is amazed about it being returned on account of intonation, particularly the violin player.

I sell the horn again to a guy in Japan, whom I haven't met but who is also a SOTW member. He also reports intonation problems! I send him a box of mouthpieces to try out. He says he can get sort of close, but it goes wacky up high and down low. He returns the horn, I refund him, we part ways amicably. I am starting to feel a little crazy and pretty nervous at this point.

The horn arrives on my doorstep. I am thinking to myself at this point "Well, since I really like the horn and its been such a pain so far, I think I'll just keep it. I've been wanting a tenor!". I get the horn out and play some arpeggios, octaves. Sounds good! My wife, also a violin player, says "Sounds in tune to me!".

I break out the tuner. Realization dawns. I begin to sweat profusely, I stammer and falter and sink into my chair. I have a horn that is perfectly in tune with itself- in the key of B. A high pitch horn. PERFECTLY a half pitch sharp! My dear sweet violin repairman, my dear sweet wife, not knowing what note I was fingering, only heard the pitches being in tune, not knowing that I was expecting pitches a half step away. One guy had it in a practice room for a half hour with a tuner and said it played great. Another guy took it home with a tuner and said it played great. Now I think that these tuners couldnt have ever been turned on! Three of the people who played the horn are signed to record labels, two as tenor players, and one as an alto player. Taken all together with the violin repairman with perfect pitch, I thought I had a rock solid group of playtesters, with many of them using tuners- although apparently not turned on, or only paying attention to the green light vs. the actual note being produced.

And it could have all been avoided if I had sat down myself and used a #$^#%^ tuner.

So, my biggest error, illuminated in public for all to see. Why? Because Dolnet saxophones have no indication on the body that they are high pitch! I have taken some measurements of this horn (prior to it going either on my wall as a hubris deterrent, or out on the street if I can't bear the shame) so that if you see one on ebay like I did you can ask for some measurements and perhaps save yourself the trouble. That is the reason for this post.

Bell diameter: 15.4cm = 6"
Inner tenon diameter (body): 2.8cm = 1 1/8"
Top of body tenon to bow length: 69.8cm = 27 1/2"


And honestly, I am about as humiliated as I have ever been. Have some mercy if you can. I wrote all this out in the hopes of saving people some trouble and money when buying a Dolnet- trouble and money I myself have spent.

This experience does NOT change my belief that Dolnet's are badass horns. Just changes my opinion about using anything other than a quiet room and a tuner and my own self for intonation checks.

Oh, and does anyone want a horn in the key of B natural? Plays perfectly in tune! :cry:
 
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#2 ·
Perfect horn for playing with guitars. Bb and F sure beat B and F# for rookies! I think you could sell it without too much problem if you explain its peculiar tuning.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Dolnet

You could refuse to sell it, only offer to rent it out to sax players that are peeved with guitar keys and want to suddenly be the best player in the band, at least for a gig!!! I remember at 16 being forced to play with sharp guitars and my key of C solo suddenly became a C# solo at a battle of the bands. I'm pretty sure they pulled that on me at the last minute because I was guesting for one show and they realised I would get the spotlight. Would have loved to have the Dolnet then heh-heh!!! :twisted:

That would for sure turn more guitars into lamps.....
 
#5 ·
abadcliche said:
Bell diameter: 15.4cm = 6"
Inner tenon diameter (body): 2.8cm = 1 1/8"
Top of body tenon to bow length: 69.8cm = 27 1/2"
Your story confirms my fears about buying a Dolnet from the European market. Is that horn body "tenon to bow" length simply a measurement of the height of the horn (sans neck)? If so, that's quite short.... You have er, a B-melody tenor !!!

By the way, does your horn have a "C" at the end of the serial number? Every Dolnet tenor I've measured (not many, only four) has had that "C." Without the neck, they all ranged around 29 3/8 to 29 1/2 inches high. Would that be a difference of close to 2 inches relative to your horn? I'm curious if the "C" might mean anything here.....
 
#6 ·
No C, just the serial. That sounds like the first clue so far to discerning these without breaking out the measuring tape. The serial number is physically located just above the bow to body joint on the RH side of the horn, about 90 degrees from where buescher/conn/selmer serial numbers are.

Yes, that is a measurement of the length without the neck.

The horn does look a bit stubby, but the bend of the neck is fairly odd, and the bell is pretty zaftig, so when taken all together, it doesn't jump out at you as being a smaller horn- especially in pictures.
 
#10 ·
Ah, here's where wind.miller's comments came from.

I got an e-mail from w.m the other day asking if I knew if the letter after a Dolnet serial number indicated anything about pitch.

"No," said I, "Dolnet used several different letters and the presence or absence of letters doesn't indicate anything that I can see. 'High Pitch'? I think the last high pitch, A=457hz, European-made horn was produced in 1932 (probably a Buffet) and the last US-made HP horn was made around 1941 (definitely a Conn).

"Now, the Dolnets that have letters after their serial numbers are the Bel Air series. We're talking 1950 through 1970. I doubt that any horn produced during that time would be A=457hz -- especially as A=457hz was a US phenomenon.

"Now, A=442hz? Possible. The Buffet S1 is an A=442hz horn -- unless you get one with an 'A' suffix serial number. However, I've easily been able to get an A=440hz horn to play in tune at A=442hz by compensating a bit and folks have told me they can do the same in reverse on their S1/S2/S3's. Not to mention that if you're only 2hz sharp, I'd be insanely happy."

Soooooo, Matt: what was the model and/or serial numberage of the horn you're talking about? I'm thinking "earlier than the Bel Air". Prove me right or wrong!

(BTB: an A=457hz horn isn't exactly a 1/2 step off; it's considerably less than that. However, from what I keep hearing about HP Buffets -- and Dolnet took their inspiration from Buffet -- it's very probably that the mouthpiece was adjusted just right and you were subconsiously adjusting to get each note in tune. Either that, or the horn's some weird custom thing and we're gonna need a young priest and an old priest ....)
 
#11 ·
Carl H. said:
Perfect horn for playing with guitars. Bb and F sure beat B and F# for rookies! I think you could sell it without too much problem if you explain its peculiar tuning.
I don't think it quite works like that. My knowledge of acoustics isn't great, so I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it's not simply a step up.

A LP horn plays at A = 440Hz and say the HP plays at 457; so the HP is 17Hz higher. Now play A an octave up: LP is 880Hz, HP is 914; that's 34Hz higher, so as you play up the scale the HP horn is getting progressively more adrift. That's why a HP horn is only usable on its own or with similar instruments.
 
#12 · (Edited)
The serial is 37547, and it definitely looks like a bel air in mechanism. Has the diamond bell-to-body brace.

As far as it playing in the key of B, I just checked again with a tuner and from low Bb to high F, the thing plays pretty darn close to a half step up from concert pitch. The worst intonation was around the bell keys, which were a bit flat. This is using a Otto Link 4**** mouthpiece. I sort of thought/think the same way as you, stitch. Perhaps the bell keys getting flatter is a symptom? Maybe within a couple of octaves, the problem won't manifest itself as much?

Since seeing Carl's suggestion, I found this on Cybersax, advertising a Conn 11m chu berry:

"Who would want to play a high pitch tenor? With the old & primitively designed ones that's a legitimate question -- but this is a full fledged modern tenor that just happens to have been built a little differently. The latter Chu tenors have the thickest, richest sound imaginable, and this one seems especially blessed! These late HP saxes can be manipulated to play with modern instruments, and in some cases, it is amazingly to the player's advantage. With a long shank mouthpiece one can tune the sax to B natural, which allows some simplifying transposition opportunities. Guitar players love the keys of E & A, yes? This leaves Bb tuned tenor players in some rather difficult keys. Now admittedly most of us have learned to cope, but think for a moment about the possibilities of playing your tenor in F & Bb, as opposed to Gb & B ...
Is anyone listening yet?"

original text can be found at http://www.cybersax.com/4Sale/Saxophones/Tenors/Saxophones_Tenor.html allllll the way at the bottom.
 
#13 ·
I don't mean to be intrusive ( or the play the role of the know-it-all...) here but we are discussing Dolnet pitches elsewhere on this forum and there has been much speculation on the significance of the letters in the SN with regards to the pitch. I most definitely have bought a Dolnet Alto which was nowhere near being in a normal pitch .If you would tune it to play a concert A in F#, the mouthpiece, several mouthpieces I might add, had to be pulled out so much that would nearly fall off and only mouthpieces with a very long shank would help a little and stay on somehow (needed huge thickness of the cork to seal) , if you had done that the horn was not in tune within itself!

Measuring (even roughly) the horn next to another alto gave you immediately the feel of something wrong going on. The bore was definitely smaller and the length was smaller too! (very cute ideed!).
If the horn would differ precisely half a tone wouldn't be a problem at all, it would be just like playing a sax next to another built in a different key (like a C-melody tenor next a normal tenor ), if you play the same note your fingers have different position and there are records of various unusual saxophones built in different keys, I seem to remember also the mention among those also of a E alto. But this is not the case with a HP.

However a saxophone built in a different frequency would never play in tune unless the horn player is a magician with his enbrochure (and there are record of this too....) and can perform under this incredible circumstances.

With regards to the existence on the European market and in the common practice of HP instruments, I am positive there are records of marching bands in the Netherlands which used these intruments until the seventies. Almost any shop has had one or two unfortunate encounters with these saxophones (different brands), some offer them to this day (run a serch with the words " hoge stemming " and you will find some on the internet) and they are regularly offeren on the second hand sites. I bumped into one once. It won't happen again.
 
#14 ·
stitch said:
I don't think it quite works like that. My knowledge of acoustics isn't great, so I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it's not simply a step up.

A LP horn plays at A = 440Hz and say the HP plays at 457; so the HP is 17Hz higher. Now play A an octave up: LP is 880Hz, HP is 914; that's 34Hz higher, so as you play up the scale the HP horn is getting progressively more adrift. That's why a HP horn is only usable on its own or with similar instruments.
I don't think he's trying to get it into a pitch of A = 440 Hz, but instead 466 Hz.

One thing to note is that each half step is a multiple of 2^(1/12) Hz higher than the previous step. So in this case, perfectly on pitch would be ~466 Hz, whereas this one may be tuned to 457, a difference of 9 Hz. One octave up will be off by 18 Hz (932 Hz in tune vs. 914 Hz). A notable difference, but still may be able to compensate. With careful mouthpiece choice, I think this definitely could be made to play *very* close to in tune.
 
#15 ·
With careful mouthpiece choice, I think this definitely could be made to play *very* close to in tune.[/QUOTE]

I believe that if it would be possible for most saxophone players to do just that there will be stacks of HP saxophones to become instantly of any value while, for the most part, nowadays, they are just freak horns one can use on a desert island or at most while playing with a string instrument (and just because they can easily be tuned in your pitch...)but more often than not they just hang on the walls of cafè's (always worth checking though, you never know...it might be a forgotten great saxophone)
 
#16 ·
stitch said:
I don't think it quite works like that. My knowledge of acoustics isn't great, so I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it's not simply a step up.

A LP horn plays at A = 440Hz and say the HP plays at 457; so the HP is 17Hz higher. Now play A an octave up: LP is 880Hz, HP is 914; that's 34Hz higher, so as you play up the scale the HP horn is getting progressively more adrift. That's why a HP horn is only usable on its own or with similar instruments.
Look, I know all about high pitch and low pitch. here we were presented with a sax which played perfectly in tune to a tuner in the key of B. If he had said it couldn't be played in tune, that is different.

I go only by what I know (am told) in each instance. This was described as a B horn, and that is what my post is based on. If my transposition was in error, let me know about it.
 
#17 ·
Carl H. said:
Look, I know all about high pitch and low pitch. here we were presented with a sax which played perfectly in tune to a tuner in the key of B. If he had said it couldn't be played in tune, that is different.

I go only by what I know (am told) in each instance. This was described as a B horn, and that is what my post is based on. If my transposition was in error, let me know about it.
OK, fair enough. I think the appropriate phrase is 'my bad ...' :oops:
 
#19 ·
everything is, of course possible, but somethings are highly unlikely, if not impossible. Although it is possible that Dolnet ever made a B tenor in order to improve the performance and the ease odf saxophonists while playing with guitarplayers (not usually the main concern of woodwinds makers), it is unlikely that nobody ever knew about it (there would have been advertising in its time to spread the word around) or that this was an absolute one-off, there should be more known to mankind. However everithing is possible there is, after all a E alto, which is apparently the holy graal which every High pitch alto is trying to couple his intrument to (been there, done that).

Yet there are Dolnet High pitch horns out there (and other brands too) produced or sold later than the '20 or '30 (remember the world war II halted the industrial production of many things which weren't essential to the war effort of the many countries involved and plenty of pre war stock might have been stored for years and sold after the war). This we know (at least I know) while we don't know anything about a in regular production B tenor (an experimental horn woulnd't have a serial number).
However the proof of the pudding is in the eating, if you have a B tenor it belongs in a museum because it is a fairly unique piece.:cheers:
 
#20 ·
Now this is getting odd. So if this thing plays pretty well (not perfect, like I said the low register isn't great) in tune in the key of B, we are thinking this is very, very weird?

Is there something I can use to measure the actual Hz of the pitch produced when I play that I maybe able to find? Perhaps a computer program?

One of the guys that had this horn said he stacked it up next to another one of his tenors, and it didn't jump out at him as being way smaller. It also didn't look ill-fitting in a pro-tec case. It also came with a Bb tenor mouthpiece on the neck when I first got it.


I will see about getting a video of the horn being played. Having this thing around the house is beginning to feel like having a Escherian trident hanging on my wall- definitely doesn't make me feel any saner.
 
#21 ·
saxpics said:
"Now, the Dolnets that have letters after their serial numbers are the Bel Air series. We're talking 1950 through 1970.
Saxpics, I have a (low pitch) tenor with S/N 3765C. Would you say this is a Bel Air? It indeed has some of the features of a Bel Air I think (but what exactly defines a Bel Air?), but based on this low serial number alone it is a Series II, according to http://www.saxpics.com/dolnet/index.htm. Perhaps it's a bit off-topic here in this thread, so I better refer to another thread where I posted some questions about the age of my Dolnet and uploaded some pictures:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=52096
 
#22 ·
I'm pretty sure the horn isn't tuned to B, but instead just can be put pretty close with the right mouthpiece. Also, sorry if my last post seemed aggressive or offensive, I really didn't intend for it to sound that way.

abadcliche said:
Is there something I can use to measure the actual Hz of the pitch produced when I play that I maybe able to find? Perhaps a computer program?
If import a note into Matlab or Mathmatica, you can use the FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) function to find the frequencies (though you'll see the entire frequency spectrum, not just the main frequency), though I'm sure there is an easier way (I've seen a bunch of tuners that actually displayed frequency as well as note).
 
#23 ·
AmSaxPlayer said:
I'm pretty sure the horn isn't tuned to B, but instead just can be put pretty close with the right mouthpiece.
That is what I think this is. When I called it a B tenor, I should have put an approriate emoticon, perhaps one of these: :dazed: :error: :mumum: :angry4: :banghead: :crybaby: :dontknow: , but it was mostly in a "d'oh" sentiment.

It does play very close though.
 
#24 ·
First, Matt, thanks very much for sharing all of this. You definitely proved my theory about dates and HP wrong. I will update my website to reflect that in the near future.

Sorry that everyone else started piling on you after I mentioned that your horn isn't pitched in B. Also, as said, if it is, I'll get the Holy Water.

With my Korg CA-20, I can tune to various frequencies and it'll say what note I'm playing -- in concert pitch, of course. However, it only goes from 430 to 449hz. I *assume* a more expensive Korg tuner can go higher.

Another option is a synthesizer. A lot of them can also tune to a different frequency.

================

Second, Sjsax20, as far as I have been aware, Dolnets with a letter in the serial number are from the "Bel Air" series -- with two exceptions: the curved soprano and sopranino are quite probably made by a different company and they do have odd serial numbers.

I took a look at your tenor at http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=456643&postcount=36
And that's a Bel Air model.

I think one of three things in your case:
a. The serial number is mis-stamped.
b. The serial number is just fine and some early Dolnets with "C" meant "multiply this serial number by 100".
c. You've misread the serial number :).

As I've said many times, if the serial number doesn't match what you think the model should be, go by the model.
 
#26 ·
saxpics said:
I think one of three things in your case:
a. The serial number is mis-stamped.
b. The serial number is just fine and some early Dolnets with "C" meant "multiply this serial number by 100".
c. You've misread the serial number :).
Or perhaps:
d. The first digit is covered by that post :shock:

View attachment 927

But I don't think I'll remove it to have a look. I'm not that curious :)
 
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