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A Comedy of Errors: Dolnet HP tenor

18K views 61 replies 21 participants last post by  milandro 
#1 Ā·
I post this with great trepidation, but I believe it is the right thing to do in the interests of transparency of my business and also passing on knowledge earned the hard/stupid way. Keep in mind that nobody but me lost money on this deal. I even refunded shipping charges, both ways.




It is with reddened face and sweaty palms that I report to you the following, the most humiliating experience of my career thus far- by a loooooong shot. The next worst was when I said "sex" instead of "sax" to a 50 year old female customer :shock:, which is peanuts in comparison.

I have recently made the biggest and dumbest mistake of my repair career. A comedy of errors that luckily in the end wasted only time and my money, vs. the money of others.

I purchased a Dolnet tenor on ebay (from the Netherlands) and overhauled it. I took it into work to have my coworkers playtest it, me not being a great tenor player. Having a violin repairman with perfect pitch in the room, we always use (or used to, anyways, as this story will illuminate) him for our tuner, with great success. His feedback was accurate and more illuminating than the tuner (he could even tell us about the intonation of the overtones in each note), so most times if he was around we just used him.

So, everyone proceeds to pass this particular horn around the shop with him listening. Octaves sound great, fifths, thirds, half steps, everything is very even and according to him very in tune up and down. He even goes so far as to remark how even it is for a saxophone. We continue to pass it around, playing it for fun, and put it back in its case. Everyone loves the horn. I play a few arpeggios and octaves myself, and satisfied, I try to find a neck plug for it to put it away in its case. I have an original 10m neckplug, and it is too small, rattling around in the receiver. Wow, I think to myself, this is a large bore horn.

A few days later a moderately well-known recording artist drops in and tries it out in a practice room with a tuner (although for reasons that will be seen later, I don't think he turned it on) for about a half hour. Loves it, but decides not to buy.

A week or so later, one of my coworkers borrows the horn for a gig. Forgetting his mouthpiece bag at home, he has to borrow a mouthpiece from a maker he doesn't like. He has trouble playing in tune all night, but manages to play it well enough that his troubles are not noticed by the rest of the band. Tells me about it the next morning in the context of how much X mouthpiece maker sucks.

A friend of mine borrows the horn to play around with. He takes it home and keeps it for a few days. Reports back that it is badass.

A while later I sell the horn to a guy I haven't met, but who is a SOTW member. He reports intonation problems and returns it. He asks if it could be high pitch. I seriously doubt it, I say. No marking on the body indicating that, and the bore is larger than a 10m! We do another deal on something else and part ways amicably, but each of us sort of thinks quietly that the other one is wrong about the Dolnet.

I get the horn back, and everyone in the shop is amazed about it being returned on account of intonation, particularly the violin player.

I sell the horn again to a guy in Japan, whom I haven't met but who is also a SOTW member. He also reports intonation problems! I send him a box of mouthpieces to try out. He says he can get sort of close, but it goes wacky up high and down low. He returns the horn, I refund him, we part ways amicably. I am starting to feel a little crazy and pretty nervous at this point.

The horn arrives on my doorstep. I am thinking to myself at this point "Well, since I really like the horn and its been such a pain so far, I think I'll just keep it. I've been wanting a tenor!". I get the horn out and play some arpeggios, octaves. Sounds good! My wife, also a violin player, says "Sounds in tune to me!".

I break out the tuner. Realization dawns. I begin to sweat profusely, I stammer and falter and sink into my chair. I have a horn that is perfectly in tune with itself- in the key of B. A high pitch horn. PERFECTLY a half pitch sharp! My dear sweet violin repairman, my dear sweet wife, not knowing what note I was fingering, only heard the pitches being in tune, not knowing that I was expecting pitches a half step away. One guy had it in a practice room for a half hour with a tuner and said it played great. Another guy took it home with a tuner and said it played great. Now I think that these tuners couldnt have ever been turned on! Three of the people who played the horn are signed to record labels, two as tenor players, and one as an alto player. Taken all together with the violin repairman with perfect pitch, I thought I had a rock solid group of playtesters, with many of them using tuners- although apparently not turned on, or only paying attention to the green light vs. the actual note being produced.

And it could have all been avoided if I had sat down myself and used a #$^#%^ tuner.

So, my biggest error, illuminated in public for all to see. Why? Because Dolnet saxophones have no indication on the body that they are high pitch! I have taken some measurements of this horn (prior to it going either on my wall as a hubris deterrent, or out on the street if I can't bear the shame) so that if you see one on ebay like I did you can ask for some measurements and perhaps save yourself the trouble. That is the reason for this post.

Bell diameter: 15.4cm = 6"
Inner tenon diameter (body): 2.8cm = 1 1/8"
Top of body tenon to bow length: 69.8cm = 27 1/2"


And honestly, I am about as humiliated as I have ever been. Have some mercy if you can. I wrote all this out in the hopes of saving people some trouble and money when buying a Dolnet- trouble and money I myself have spent.

This experience does NOT change my belief that Dolnet's are badass horns. Just changes my opinion about using anything other than a quiet room and a tuner and my own self for intonation checks.

Oh, and does anyone want a horn in the key of B natural? Plays perfectly in tune! :cry:
 
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#27 Ā·
the mistery thickens here too (as I said before)

I don't think that there is any acrimony from anybody here, we are all just being really interested in this very rare situation.

Whatever it is there will be a way to test this horn there are only three possibilities:
A: A Normal Tenor which plays really off key but pretty constantly and borders being in the Key of B
B: A HP tenor which plays ok but where players (unconsciously) continuosly adjust their embrochure to make it play as close as possible to a tone they know.
C: The one and only, B tenor which was built , in secret, as an experiment by Dolnet ( otherwise not known as an experimental company.

With regards to Saxpics (thanking him for the great job he does and which became the reference site worldwide in order to identify saxophones).
I am absolutely positive that I've owned a alto HP 35xxx (I haven't got it anymore but , if necessary I can go to see the new owner and take some pictures) and that it was identical to my later tenor horn 695xxC.

Both had no " Bel Air" written on them bt they sure are identical to all the models which are defined as to be " Bel Air". The only difference I can detect is the pearls on top of the guards being some sort of dark red laquer on the old HP alto and being mother of pearl in the later Tenor.

I see several Dolnets in music shops and being offered in Holland and Belgium. It was a very common horn in the past, more in the silver or nickel (curiously, as it must have been cheaper when new, this is less common) than gold laquered or gold plated. Baritones are widely appreciated (I recently saw a Bass at a concert, which looked strangely Dolnet-ian).
 
#28 Ā·
I think it is choice B. The horn is slightly stubbier than other tenors- although not grossly so. It plays pretty easily in the key of B, and that is where I think people are unconsciously making it play. When I got it home the last time, I put my mouthpiece on the cork to around its normal spot for me, and starting playing some scales and arpeggios, I'm sure making various adjustments to my embouchure for support and intonation. When I checked a tuner, my middle C was a concert B.

I have since checked the tuner by making my metronome play an A440, and the tuner indeed showed it to be an A.

It is otherwise an odd horn in two ways- nickel plated finish, which I didn't know many Bel Airs to come in. Also it has the normal Dolnet engraving on the bow and bell EXCEPT for the Dolnet name, where instead some obviously different engraver put "L Firma Maheu Gent" in a very heavy hand at a later date.
 
#29 Ā· (Edited)
Dolnet in their nickel plate version are not as uncommon as one might think, but that is in Europe, of course, in countries such as France, Belgium, Germany and last but not least Holland. In the various AD sections (even more than on a E-bay, which in Holland lays mostly idle....) of several second-hand sites they regularly show up (in the last few hours two showed up on http://www.marktplaats.nl (can't post a link to the specific ad because the system doesn't show it as a specific link) an M70 and a Bel Air (or Series II).

There are records of several stencils Dolnet made for several Brandnames, on this site there is a Martin (french shop or importer) Dolnet. In this instace the saxophone was probably sold by a Belgian company or shop in Gand (french name), Gent (flamish name), Firma means firm, company.
 
#30 Ā·
The Dolnet Royal Jazz alto I used to own - serial number 46XXX - did not have any letters after the number (I checked the photos I still have). No problems with pitch that I was ever aware of.

The lack of a letter suffix ties in with saxpics' statement about Bel Airs.
 
#32 Ā·
I wonder if the french speaking part of the forum has more information on the Dolnet in general and in particular on this matter of the letters in the Serial ID. I am not at all convinced of their significance when it comes to HP or LP (although it is odd that there would be no way to telle them apart...). It would be ever so nice if a bi-lingual member of this forum would ask the French-speaking community to enlighten us on this matters (and others).
 
#33 Ā·
milandro said:
Whatever it is there will be a way to test this horn there are only three possibilities:
A: A Normal Tenor which plays really off key but pretty constantly and borders being in the Key of B
B: A HP tenor which plays ok but where players (unconsciously) continuosly adjust their embrochure to make it play as close as possible to a tone they know.
C: The one and only, B tenor which was built , in secret, as an experiment by Dolnet ( otherwise not known as an experimental company.
The best way to describe it is: "In other words, if you hear hoof beats, you just go ahead and think horsies and not zebras." :salute:
 
#38 Ā·
I just bought that HP Dolnet for sale in Marketplaas.

It has triggered my brain, why would any one build a high pitch saxophone in the 1950Ā“s. It has the diamond shaped braze to the bell, so it is a late Bel-Air.

If it is high pitch, it must smaller than a tenor......

Anyway, it goes into my collection, as a late high pitch.

Regards

Meyer
 
#39 Ā·
Meyer said:
If it is high pitch, it must smaller than a tenor......
Anyway, it goes into my collection, as a late high pitch.
The advert actually says, in Dutch, that the horn is slightly smaller than a ordinary tenor. Like my alto was just slightly smaller than a LP one.

Why would anybody build a HP saxophone in the 50's? But was it built in 1950?

We have been discussing this at length in a couple of topics but what I suppose it has happened is that the war years must have frozen a considrable stock of High Pitch intstuments (or at least of body tubes) at Dolnet factory which after the war were marketed (remember there are no official charts for Donlet instrument so most charts are based on guesses or anecdotes) targeting it especially to the marching band market. In this sort of trade Dolnet was particularly good and suited to provide a whole marching band with the complete lot of brass and woodwinds because , unlike most other companies, they built them all , this explains also the high serial numbers because they were numbering all their instruments with the same set of serial mumbers.

I think it has been established that the function of the letters in the serial numbers is not exactly clear but it was not associated to HP or LP identifications. Did they have anyway, other than the length to tell them apart? Nobody , until now, really knows.

Dolnets are really very common in the Netherlands and the fact that marching bands using HP instruments survived in the Netherlands until the late seventies must account for the relative high frequency of finds like this.

This particular horn you've bought, comes from a shop which is selling it for very little after re-hauling it, as the advert says, It is evident that the price doesn't even cover the cost of re-hauling it! So they must think that they are into a damages limitation sale, they wouldn't do that if they were not convinced that the horn was otherwise sellable, would they?

Probably they bumped into a cheap horn which was given to them in part exchange, done it up because there are no HP horns built after 1929 are they? Sold it to someone who later returned it with a rather angry look on his face.........

Very honest of them to sell it as HP though!;)
 
#40 Ā·
Thank you for your answer!

Quote:
Originally posted by milandro
Dolnets are really very common in the Netherlands and the fact that marching bands using HP instruments survived in the Netherlands until the late seventies must account for the relative high frequency of finds like this.

That might be the answer, that there was a late market for HP saxophones in the Netherlands, and as you say Dolnets are very common in the Netherlands, it could have been that Dolnets kept producing HP for the Netherlands only.

Kind regards

Meyer
 
#41 Ā·
Meyer said:
That might be the answer, that there was a late market for HP saxophones in the Netherlands, and as you say Dolnets are very common in the Netherlands, it could have been that Dolnets kept producing HP for the Netherlands only.
I seriously doubt that Dolnet would have been keeping a " production line" only for the Netherlands......I think that it is much more likely that they were just getting rid (and it took obviously a fex years) of some old stock which was laying about at the factory and by the way , if this is true, it was only possible because France was occupied very early in the war years and never really had the need to runsack the metal sources as all the other nations which took part in the war did (on one side or the other).
It would be very nice to exchange idea about this with the French speaking forum, maybe someone there has more and better information on Dolnet and on the mysterious post war HP horns which seem to appear every now and then. Belgium, obviously France and perhaps Germany seem to have a high density of Dolnets.

Kind regards
AndrƩ;)
 
#42 Ā· (Edited)
milandro, I like your idea about the HP availabillity because of the marching and community bands overhere (Netherlands and maybe Belgium) still playing pre-war pitch. I checked our archives and there was a switch to common pitch in the early seventies. I also did an anniversary concert with another comm. band last year and they still had some HP instruments available, they don't use them anymore ofcourse but for this concert they had a small ensemble play a tune with these instruments. The tune was taken over by the rest of the band and we played several measures together so the audiance could hear these instruments were hard to play together.
 
#43 Ā·
Hi Grumpie! This confirms the data available on several Dutch Marching Bands sites! Also explains why these intruments appear every now and again (someone dies, the relatives find the horn and sell it on...) on the second hand market. I tell you there is no ID to tell HP Dolnet from LP so always bring a tuner with you if you buy one. It would be nice to get in touch with the Dutch importer of this company if there are still records there about this HP and LP matter and learn more about it.
 
#44 Ā·
I will try if there is something available in the financial archives, I doubt but no harm in looking. Maybe there is some interesting info there. Since it's common practice here that almost all the instruments used in marching and community band are owned by the bands and provided to the members there should be some records there. (First I have to find out wether Dolnets were used and if not who knows what other brands I can come across, could even be there were no saxes used until the seventies)
 
#45 Ā·
Producing a HP tenor saxophone, is not only a matter of some old stock. All rods has to be slightly shorter than the LP model, as the distance between the toneholes is shorter. So producing a HP saxophone would require a different production line. In a small company like Dolnet, they must have had some sort of identification to see wheter it was to a LP and HP.

Could it be that the post is soldered onto the serial number if it is a HP?

I will see if mine has the same "identification" when I get it next week.

Regards

Meyer
 
#46 Ā·
I seem to be in the minority here, but this sounds like a Dolnet C-melody to me.

1) the "C" in the serial number
2) Wouldn't a C-melody sound around B if the mouthpiece were too big (i.e. a tenor mouthpiece)? Seems like you should try a C-melody mouthpiece or shove a tenor mouthpiece on far enough that it sounds concert C when you finger a written C.

Alan
 
#48 Ā·
it is not a C-melody, we have discussed the issue of Dolnets serial numbers and the HP at length and there are C serial numbers horns in all sorts of category.

The Identification of these horns to be HP has been positive in several cases, one being my alto. A C-melody is also very easy to spot because, OK, it might be more or less the length of a Tenor Bb but the bore is very close to the one of a Alto. Anyway, you will soon see for yourself.

Meyer do you have a Dolnet C-melody? I have never seen or heard there was one. B.t.w. C-Melodies were mostly if not entirely an American thing.
 
#50 Ā·
Meyer said:
No, my C-melody is Buescher.
I have never heard of an european c-melody.

Kind regards
Meyer
Although they're rare, Selmer-Paris did make some. It's my understanding that Paul Coats has Selmer Cmel that is keyed to Low-A.
 
#51 Ā· (Edited)
Meyer said:
Producing a HP tenor saxophone, is not only a matter of some old stock. All rods has to be slightly shorter than the LP model, as the distance between the toneholes is shorter. So producing a HP saxophone would require a different production line. In a small company like Dolnet, they must have had some sort of identification to see wheter it was to a LP and HP.

Could it be that the post is soldered onto the serial number if it is a HP?

I will see if mine has the same "identification" when I get it next week.

Regards

Meyer
the C in the serial number is a red herring you are being confused by it, read other topics about the same subject where we have already discussed this matter of serial numbers, there are horns with a C which are not HP and horns without letters which are HP (I had one, a alto). My High pitched alto had no post soldered onto the SN. Like this horn Meyer bought and the other one which started the whole topic they have no identification as to be a HP, whether you believe it or not, and the presence of these horns on the market explains the bad press about the Dolnets being of a bad intonation nature (while otherwise of outstanding quality), there are reports of people who are so in command of their embochure being able to play in tune (or close to it) HP instruments (someone somewhere else claims he knows a soprano player doing it), I couldn't and went crazy trying to understand was was wrong with me for a while until my teacher ( a man of superb technique and intonation with a past experience as repair man, one of the most qualified in Amsterdam) did some tests and then saying " I know what's going on here" he held the horn against another alto pointing out that it had a smaller bore and that it was shorter!

BY the way I quote from Sacpics site on buying vintage horns
"....Fortunately, Martin and Conn horns are labeled "L" or "Low Pitch." Bueschers are not. King/HN White horns occasionally are. Buffet/Evette & Schaeffer horns sometimes are. Adolphe Sax horns are not. ......." so you see there are many unmarked HP horns out there and in this Dolnet wasn't the only one! :D
 
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