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A Comedy of Errors: Dolnet HP tenor

18K views 61 replies 21 participants last post by  milandro 
#1 Ā·
I post this with great trepidation, but I believe it is the right thing to do in the interests of transparency of my business and also passing on knowledge earned the hard/stupid way. Keep in mind that nobody but me lost money on this deal. I even refunded shipping charges, both ways.




It is with reddened face and sweaty palms that I report to you the following, the most humiliating experience of my career thus far- by a loooooong shot. The next worst was when I said "sex" instead of "sax" to a 50 year old female customer :shock:, which is peanuts in comparison.

I have recently made the biggest and dumbest mistake of my repair career. A comedy of errors that luckily in the end wasted only time and my money, vs. the money of others.

I purchased a Dolnet tenor on ebay (from the Netherlands) and overhauled it. I took it into work to have my coworkers playtest it, me not being a great tenor player. Having a violin repairman with perfect pitch in the room, we always use (or used to, anyways, as this story will illuminate) him for our tuner, with great success. His feedback was accurate and more illuminating than the tuner (he could even tell us about the intonation of the overtones in each note), so most times if he was around we just used him.

So, everyone proceeds to pass this particular horn around the shop with him listening. Octaves sound great, fifths, thirds, half steps, everything is very even and according to him very in tune up and down. He even goes so far as to remark how even it is for a saxophone. We continue to pass it around, playing it for fun, and put it back in its case. Everyone loves the horn. I play a few arpeggios and octaves myself, and satisfied, I try to find a neck plug for it to put it away in its case. I have an original 10m neckplug, and it is too small, rattling around in the receiver. Wow, I think to myself, this is a large bore horn.

A few days later a moderately well-known recording artist drops in and tries it out in a practice room with a tuner (although for reasons that will be seen later, I don't think he turned it on) for about a half hour. Loves it, but decides not to buy.

A week or so later, one of my coworkers borrows the horn for a gig. Forgetting his mouthpiece bag at home, he has to borrow a mouthpiece from a maker he doesn't like. He has trouble playing in tune all night, but manages to play it well enough that his troubles are not noticed by the rest of the band. Tells me about it the next morning in the context of how much X mouthpiece maker sucks.

A friend of mine borrows the horn to play around with. He takes it home and keeps it for a few days. Reports back that it is badass.

A while later I sell the horn to a guy I haven't met, but who is a SOTW member. He reports intonation problems and returns it. He asks if it could be high pitch. I seriously doubt it, I say. No marking on the body indicating that, and the bore is larger than a 10m! We do another deal on something else and part ways amicably, but each of us sort of thinks quietly that the other one is wrong about the Dolnet.

I get the horn back, and everyone in the shop is amazed about it being returned on account of intonation, particularly the violin player.

I sell the horn again to a guy in Japan, whom I haven't met but who is also a SOTW member. He also reports intonation problems! I send him a box of mouthpieces to try out. He says he can get sort of close, but it goes wacky up high and down low. He returns the horn, I refund him, we part ways amicably. I am starting to feel a little crazy and pretty nervous at this point.

The horn arrives on my doorstep. I am thinking to myself at this point "Well, since I really like the horn and its been such a pain so far, I think I'll just keep it. I've been wanting a tenor!". I get the horn out and play some arpeggios, octaves. Sounds good! My wife, also a violin player, says "Sounds in tune to me!".

I break out the tuner. Realization dawns. I begin to sweat profusely, I stammer and falter and sink into my chair. I have a horn that is perfectly in tune with itself- in the key of B. A high pitch horn. PERFECTLY a half pitch sharp! My dear sweet violin repairman, my dear sweet wife, not knowing what note I was fingering, only heard the pitches being in tune, not knowing that I was expecting pitches a half step away. One guy had it in a practice room for a half hour with a tuner and said it played great. Another guy took it home with a tuner and said it played great. Now I think that these tuners couldnt have ever been turned on! Three of the people who played the horn are signed to record labels, two as tenor players, and one as an alto player. Taken all together with the violin repairman with perfect pitch, I thought I had a rock solid group of playtesters, with many of them using tuners- although apparently not turned on, or only paying attention to the green light vs. the actual note being produced.

And it could have all been avoided if I had sat down myself and used a #$^#%^ tuner.

So, my biggest error, illuminated in public for all to see. Why? Because Dolnet saxophones have no indication on the body that they are high pitch! I have taken some measurements of this horn (prior to it going either on my wall as a hubris deterrent, or out on the street if I can't bear the shame) so that if you see one on ebay like I did you can ask for some measurements and perhaps save yourself the trouble. That is the reason for this post.

Bell diameter: 15.4cm = 6"
Inner tenon diameter (body): 2.8cm = 1 1/8"
Top of body tenon to bow length: 69.8cm = 27 1/2"


And honestly, I am about as humiliated as I have ever been. Have some mercy if you can. I wrote all this out in the hopes of saving people some trouble and money when buying a Dolnet- trouble and money I myself have spent.

This experience does NOT change my belief that Dolnet's are badass horns. Just changes my opinion about using anything other than a quiet room and a tuner and my own self for intonation checks.

Oh, and does anyone want a horn in the key of B natural? Plays perfectly in tune! :cry:
 
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#52 Ā·
always for those who like the HP horns in relation to the puzzle of HP vs. LP, another HP horn on Marktplaats ( Dutch secondhand site) it is a Bariton (search " hoge stemming") sold together with a LP bariton, the HP is obviously Later than the LP (which has two octaves keys), I don't think this is a Dolnet......
 
#53 Ā·
.....and, sadly, one more HP Dolnet alto found in Holland!

Serie 65XXXX it belongs to a friend of mine ( as a matter of fact we got to know each other because of this horn. I had seen it before but didn't dare buying it because of a previous experience with a HP Dolnet Alto) .

He gave it to me to play and I found strange pitch peculiarities (the funny thing is that I had seen it before and it seem to check with a tuner but it wasn't entirely playable back then)

Anyway the horn is about 5 cm (roughly) shorter than other altos I have !
The previous owner was the original person who purchased this horn new in 1965 in a Dutch shop (so much for the common knowledge that HP disappeared in 1939....).

I don't even know if the pitch is such that A=457 Hz.
 
#54 Ā·
But if the horn is in-tune with notes -- just half-step high each time -- does it play in tune if music is transposed as if it's a B instrument? I'm thinking a student may appreciate this because they wouldn't hit so many dreaded sharps or flats. They'd just transpose differently -- right?

S.
 
#55 Ā·
If a HP instrument can be wrestled into playing a full semitone sharp, it could make a great pairing with the corresponding LP instrument, much the way a matched set of A and Bb clarinets are regarded. Or you could just pawn it off on eBay as "Tenor saxophone in B Natural -- ULTRA RARE BUY NOW YOU MAY NEVER SEE ONE LIKE THIS AGAIN!!!!!11!1!oneone":twisted:
 
#57 Ā·
no, it doesn't work this way you will always be too sharp the higher you go and too low the lower you go. To be able to play a HP horn in tune (either by lipping up and down or tuning half a note up) is the hope of everyone who bought by mistake a HP instrument but unfortunately doesn't work that way and they all (I did) soon(er or later) find out . You can tune one note to the effect that it plays the pitch that is supposed to play or half a step higher but the horn won't be in tune with itself. If was that easy there wouldn't be any problem, and obviously (even leaving the science aside , common and empiric knowledge will tell you) there is one.

Really, when you put a HP horn next to a normally pitched horn you see that it is impossible to make the two play together since their physical dimensions are so different (wind and brass sound is all about length of tubing).
 
#58 Ā·
Ah ok. My Largo thankfully does not have this syndrome. I play along to MIDI files all the time and it sounds very in tune. Although, I am prepared for you guys to disagree when I post some recordings. The man who sells these (Noel) is a violinist so his hearing would be perfect for when he tested these.

S.
 
#60 Ā·
Ah ok. My Largo thankfully does not have this syndrome. I play along to MIDI files all the time and it sounds very in tune. Although, I am prepared for you guys to disagree when I post some recordings. The man who sells these (Noel) is a violinist so his hearing would be perfect for when he tested these.

S.
Ideally, his hearing should be perfect, but this usually more like the case;
 
#61 Ā·
LOL oh dear! I could only imagine this happening in real life.

I'm not concerned with Noel however, as he played in the army in a regimented situation. You wouldn't get away with bad pitch there! Lots of people have bought his custom violins (he is busy with them day in and out!) and have reported impressed teachers and students.

His ebay feedback is very good considering they are "cheap" instruments. The few people that were unsatisfied (and that's very few) with their instruments were consoled by easy refunds. That's why I suggested the Largo for beginners. They can buy one, and have peace of mind that if their teacher doesn't like it, they can return it. Very few places would be so kind as to do this. When he even offered a refund if I had an allergic reaction (which even fewer sellers do) I knew I'd found a caring winner of a seller.

Hence my inability to stop recommending his products. Students would be much happier if these Largo were the most-bought "cheap" saxophones, rather than the other brands of total disaster. You can get the funky colours and digestable price tag without a tragic horn behind it.

S.
 
#59 Ā·
Good for you Bubblegirlsax! But for all the others who are buying vintage saxophones , be very careful! The thing is not that Dolnets have to be avoided at all costs, on the contrary, they can be great horns but it is a pity (as it happened both to me and to my friend) to first buy something wrong and then spend money on a overhaul of an instrument that you can only play by yourself or with a guitar.
 
#62 Ā·
this Baritone was originally advertised as being playing " in tune" NOT in the key of Eb but in E.... NOT!, now the seller has reformed his ad and is declaring the obvious.

This is a HP Dolnet baritone.

https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/muziek...da871b0d84f75c3056cc6db858f31&previousPage=lr

There were a few which surfaced lately and someone I know even bought one from a dealer (it was conveniently unplayable at the time of purchase and he had it overhauled before discovering that it was HP so returning it was no longer an option).

 
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