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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#202 ·
drakesaxprof said:
Seems to me that the problem is one of semantics. When we refer to "classical" saxophone, that is just shorthand for non-jazz concert music. Those of us who devote considerable energies to this--and there are many--are not playing transcriptions of Bach, Mozart or whatever. We're talking about sophisticated modern concert music of Berio, Stockhausen, Lauba, Scelsi, Glass, etc. The music may or may not be to you liking, but there's no denying that, for many of us, the extraordinary challenges of this repertoire are no less (though not necessarily more) than learning Trane's Countdown solo, for example, just different. Learning this repertoire is not a means to some other end. For plenty of great players, it is the end game. Go listen to Otis Murphy, Raaf Hekkema (raafhekkema.com), Joel Versavaud, Jean-Marie Londeix, Claude Delangle, etc., and you'll hear artistry and commitment on par with any jazz player, past or present. This is really a puzzling "discussion," I have to say. As for the overtone exercises, they are indeed useful--they're part of the daily routine for many classical players, and there are great exercises to be found in Rascher's Top Tones book, or in Rousseau's High Tones for Saxophone, among others. The notion that adult players are waiting for the next utterance on the subject to arrive in this thread, instead of vigorously pursuing this on their own with all the materials already available to them, strikes me as odd. Get a great teacher, who understands the instrument, is open to all genres of music, and is committed to your progress.
Absolutely agree; particularly, the last part.
 
#203 ·
drakesaxprof said:
As for the overtone exercises, they are indeed useful--they're part of the daily routine for many classical players, and there are great exercises to be found in Rascher's Top Tones book, or in Rousseau's High Tones for Saxophone, among others. The notion that adult players are waiting for the next utterance on the subject to arrive in this thread, instead of vigorously pursuing this on their own with all the materials already available to them, strikes me as odd. Get a great teacher, who understands the instrument, is open to all genres of music, and is committed to your progress.
Yes it is odd, but the fact is that some people who come here DON'T have the opportunities or training and experience that you and I, and of course many others here, have.
Phil has posted this thread for those members out of a genuine desire to help and inform, having realised from much of what he has read here, that a lot of people don't know this basic stuff.
 
#204 ·
drakesaxprof said:
The notion that adult players are waiting for the next utterance on the subject to arrive in this thread, instead of vigorously pursuing this on their own with all the materials already available to them, strikes me as odd. Get a great teacher, who understands the instrument, is open to all genres of music, and is committed to your progress.
I think this is the point. This method of teaching the saxophone is not as widely understood or used as you might think. In fact much of the overtone practice/scales on the mouthpiece excresices are, or certainly were, regarded with great suspicion as being 'typical anal American BS' by many Europeans. Now don't get upset, please, I am reporting the facts, not representing a viewpoint.

The suspicion that still exists around these non-musical techniques is partly based on the mistrust of professors who artificially 'develop' a technique simply in order to - at best standardise their way as being convincing and at worst puff their own egos. Believe me it happens. Teal is generally regarded as 'on the level' in the UK whilst Allard (partly through that dreadful video) is regarded as a(possibly interesting) crank.

Any really competent sax player should be able to perform these exercises anyway whatever the approach. It all gets you to the same place in the end whether by instinct or by intellect (the merits of which are a whole discussion in them selves). However, my interest in these exercises is two fold. Firstly as a way of rationalizing my own techniques and secondly as a way of teaching more constructively. To be honest there isn't a professor in the UK that I know who seriously uses these techniques on a regular basis, they'd be laughed out of town.:(
 
#205 ·
When it comes down to improvements in tone doesn't it all come back to Rascher? It really is simple but when people are told something is simple they expect a method that gives immediate results. When the results don't come quickly then the method is faulty so you need to look somewhere else. I've had this from people too many times, "Yeah, yeah, long tones, overtones, I've done them and still not got what I need so it must be something else, some thing I'm not being told". It isn't something else. Its long tones and overtones and you do them until you get results and then you keep doing them forever. How long does it take? As long as it takes and you never stop. It's that simple.
 
#207 ·
Mike Cesati said:
As far as taking in more mpc : I really see the benefit in the tone and clarity of the palm keys into altissimo. I'm more of aware of everything lately and seeing where the best positioning is.

I'm taking way more than I have ever tried. Practically swallowing it
Totally on it. At that level you want to practically have it in your voice-box.

It's like being able to sing soprano.
 
#208 ·
Phil Barone said:
What the hell are you doing studying classical sax anyway? There's no such thing and what are you going to do with it? There's no market for that. If you know all the fingering on the sax it's time to start studying with a jazz musician, it doesn't matter what instrument they play but someone with a strong piano would be best. Phil
I thought this was funny because it has an ironic core of truth. I don't think it was intended as an insult to classical music lovers. My thoughts are that, yes you can play classical music on a sax, but when you do that you're not really playing sax. It's more like you've got to emulate a flute sound, or a violin, or a french horn, or a trumpet. What classical music is written specifically to let a sax be just itself, with a true saxy sound? With classical you've always got to be part of a section, don't stand out, just blend (in other words disappear.)

Thanks Phil for bringing these exercises to my attention in this way. It helped me realize that I've already been doing this unconsciously to a limited degree having discovered it unintentionally on my own. But doing it consciously (because of your recommendation) has made me realize that I should focus on it more and be aware of it so that I can use it intentionally and with more precision and at will.

It's actually a cool sensation, more like singing through the horn instead of artificially forcing the horn. I can feel the sound more inside my head and body and the horn feels more like an extension of my voice. Cool.

I never tried the scales before on the mouthpiece alone. I was taught one had to always play the mouthpiece with a single perfect pitch (I never really abided by that though). I used to play trumpet and french horn so I already had the concept of playing the mouthpiece formed as a habit.
So far I can only do 6 note scales on it though (but I only just tried it for a few minutes after having read this thread.)
 
#210 ·
Chu-Jerry said:
I thought this was funny because it has an ironic core of truth. I don't think it was intended as an insult to classical music lovers. My thoughts are that, yes you can play classical music on a sax, but when you do that you're not really playing sax. It's more like you've got to emulate a flute sound, or a violin, or a french horn, or a trumpet. What classical music is written specifically to let a sax be just itself, with a true saxy sound? With classical you've always got to be part of a section, don't stand out, just blend (in other words disappear.)
I actually have the opposite take on this. First, Adolphe Sax created the instrument as an orchestral voice, blending the best aspects of the brass and woodwind families into an entirely new instrument. It's adoption into jazz took place some 80 years after its creation. Further, what instrument is the flute emulating when it plays classical? Or the trumpet? Nobody seems to have any issues with that, even though Maurice Andre doesn't sound anything like Lee Morgan, and Moody sounds rather different than Rampal. Our instrument is at least as flexible, and able to encompass the differing demands of all genres.

Finally, the music that has been written during the last 30 years or so for concert saxophone, whether Christian Lauba's music, or Xenakis' quartet XAS, to mention only a few, is actually created specifically based upon the unique and varied capabilities of the saxophone. In Lauba's case, it is not just music for the saxophone, it is music of the saxophone, in that he worked with Londeix, Versavaud, and others to discover exactly what the saxophone could do--each multiphonic possible, various articulations, altissimo, glissando, etc, and created music stemming entirely from these possibilities. This music cannot be played on any other instrument--only the saxophone!

No other instrument has allowed themselves, even brought it upon themselves as saxophonists have, to be pigeon-holed into a particular genre of music. The piano has as diverse practitioners as Art Tatum, Horowitz, Cecil Taylor, and Marilyn Nonken. Do you think that any of them would dare to suggest to the others that the piano should only do this or that genre of music. It really is a ludicrous notion. I play concert saxophone music very seriously, and take jazz playing no less seriously. Beyond that, if you want to hear some extraordinary playing outside either of these genres, check out Kadri Gopalnath, the "Emperor of the Saxophone" in South Indian classical Carnatic music. Talk about rising above these self-imposed limits!

And, I do think that this is a worthwhile discussion, though something of a diversion from the origin of the thread. I wouldn't have addressed it here, but for some implications and misinformation being bandied about.
 
#211 · (Edited)
Practice with just mouthpiece:
I can achieve 7 distinct "notes" while descending, much harder going from low to high. I cup my hand around the mouthpiece to mute-mellow the sound. Dropping the jaw while keeping the lip tight as suggested here. Interesting!
 
#212 ·
drakesaxprof said:
Beyond that, if you want to hear some extraordinary playing outside either of these genres, check out Kadri Gopalnath, the "Emperor of the Saxophone" in South Indian classical Carnatic music. Talk about rising above these self-imposed limits!
Wow, that's pretty cool stuff. I wonder if he and Charlie Mariano have ever gotten together.
 
#213 ·
Al Stevens said:
I had to be away from the sax for a few days. I came back to it today and found I can't do the damn sliding thing without dropping the jaw now. One step forward, two steps back.

Phil, please finish that piece you're making for me so I can blame it on you.
Oh, your piece is done. It just has to be plated but it came out so good I was thinking about keeping it for myself. Don't worry though, I'll make you another. Phil
 
#214 ·
drakesaxprof said:
I actually have the opposite take on this. First, Adolphe Sax created the instrument as an orchestral voice, blending the best aspects of the brass and woodwind families into an entirely new instrument. It's adoption into jazz took place some 80 years after its creation. Further, what instrument is the flute emulating when it plays classical? Or the trumpet? Nobody seems to have any issues with that, even though Maurice Andre doesn't sound anything like Lee Morgan, and Moody sounds rather different than Rampal. Our instrument is at least as flexible, and able to encompass the differing demands of all genres.

Finally, the music that has been written during the last 30 years or so for concert saxophone, whether Christian Lauba's music, or Xenakis' quartet XAS, to mention only a few, is actually created specifically based upon the unique and varied capabilities of the saxophone. In Lauba's case, it is not just music for the saxophone, it is music of the saxophone, in that he worked with Londeix, Versavaud, and others to discover exactly what the saxophone could do--each multiphonic possible, various articulations, altissimo, glissando, etc, and created music stemming entirely from these possibilities. This music cannot be played on any other instrument--only the saxophone!

No other instrument has allowed themselves, even brought it upon themselves as saxophonists have, to be pigeon-holed into a particular genre of music. The piano has as diverse practitioners as Art Tatum, Horowitz, Cecil Taylor, and Marilyn Nonken. Do you think that any of them would dare to suggest to the others that the piano should only do this or that genre of music. It really is a ludicrous notion. I play concert saxophone music very seriously, and take jazz playing no less seriously. Beyond that, if you want to hear some extraordinary playing outside either of these genres, check out Kadri Gopalnath, the "Emperor of the Saxophone" in South Indian classical Carnatic music. Talk about rising above these self-imposed limits!

And, I do think that this is a worthwhile discussion, though something of a diversion from the origin of the thread. I wouldn't have addressed it here, but for some implications and misinformation being bandied about.
Very well-stated ... again .:)
 
#215 ·
drakesaxprof said:
No other instrument has allowed themselves, even brought it upon themselves as saxophonists have, to be pigeon-holed into a particular genre of music.
But my question is, Where can I pick up one of thouse electified ampped up, oboe pick ups so I can rock out with my friend in the mega death style!:shock: :shock::evil: :twisted: :)
 
#216 ·
Radjammin said:
But my question is, Where can I pick up one of thouse electified ampped up, oboe pick ups so I can rock out with my friend in the mega death style!:shock: :shock::evil: :twisted: :)
Megadeth Rules!!*

They totally shred. I've heard them in concert. What a show! I was sick for a week from the strobelights and subwoofers. Those guys moved some air!

*and they don't have a sax or oboe.
 
#218 ·
drakesaxprof said:
...Finally, the music that has been written during the last 30 years or so for concert saxophone, whether Christian Lauba's music, or Xenakis' quartet XAS, to mention only a few, is actually created specifically based upon the unique and varied capabilities of the saxophone. ...
HA! well that explains it then. It's been about 30 years since I last played classical in the orchestra, or concert band.
 
#219 ·
Chu-Jerry said:
HA! well that explains it then. It's been about 30 years since I last played classical in the orchestra, or concert band.
I think when people are talking about classical, they aren't talking about concert band, necessarily. They're probably referring to solo/chamber/recital type literature, and (IMO) there's good solo/chamber stuff written for just about any instrument you can imagine.
 
#223 ·
Phil Barone said:
So how's everyone doing with this? Are we ready for some more or do we need another week or so? Phil
Since I do this, or something similar, in my routine warm-up exercise already, I'm rarin' to go and curious about what you've got in mind to follow.

Before you do post, though, I have a suggestion to Phil, and a request to everyone else.

Phil - could you start another thread with the continuation of this exercise, i.e. "Tone Production Part II" or "....Continued", or something like that?

All Others - I would like to request that, if Phil starts another thread on this topic that you respect his wishes and focus on his specific exercise, which he's requested not once, but several times on this thread, so we can follow his instructions and each of our progress easily without so much additional info/opinions/etc?
- - If anyone feels compelled to go off topic and keep it there, might I suggest another thread to keep all of that conversation in one place?

Thanks :)
 
#224 ·
gary said:
Phil - could you start another thread with the continuation of this exercise, i.e. "Tone Production Part II" or "....Continued", or something like that?
Sounds very sensible to me, it gets my vote and I'd go with Part II rather than Continued, just in case there's a III...

Re "taking in more", I could carry on taking in as much of the Phil Barone mpc as I wanted without a problem, but when I tried it on my Freddie Gregory IV I started chirping straight away as soon as I hit a specific spot. (That's not to knock the Gregory of course, I realise I'm the weak link here) ;)

I've also managed to loosen my grip around the mouthpiece too and it feels very natural and comfortable to do so. The octave thing is beyond me at this stage, but I'll come back to it when I'm ready... thanks Phil et al.
 
#226 ·
gary said:
All Others - I would like to request that, if Phil starts another thread on this topic that you respect his wishes and focus on his specific exercise, which he's requested not once, but several times on this thread, so we can follow his instructions and each of our progress easily without so much additional info/opinions/etc?
- - If anyone feels compelled to go off topic and keep it there, might I suggest another thread to keep all of that conversation in one place?

Thanks :)
Sure, but if you tell me to use the search function after I post it....
 
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