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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#77 ·
When playing a scale on the mouthpice it is best to start with a descending scale. Start on an A or Bb and go down. See how far you can go. Leibman says we should aim for a range of a tenth!!! - I'm still struggling to get the octave all the time (i admit i don't practice this everyday). Another good thing to do with the mouthpiece is play simple tunes.
 
#78 ·
Martinman, I'd still lose the Dukoff. I played one for two years on tenor in high school (D8). I was able to control it but I changed it for a Meyer because my fellow sectionmates could not reach my levels of volume and tone presence. The 1st tenor chair should not bury the section, if anything lead alto should soar a BIT dynamically and tonally and that's all. I was fighting the mouthpiece too much to blend so I eventually gave up and went with the more conservative Meyer 6M.

Now the only situation I'd use that dukoff for is a LOUD cover band if my mic got messed up.
 
#79 ·
Razzy said:
Martinman, I'd still lose the Dukoff. I played one for two years on tenor in high school (D8). I was able to control it but I changed it for a Meyer because my fellow sectionmates could not reach my levels of volume and tone presence. The 1st tenor chair should not bury the section, if anything lead alto should soar a BIT dynamically and tonally and that's all. I was fighting the mouthpiece too much to blend so I eventually gave up and went with the more conservative Meyer 6M.

Now the only situation I'd use that dukoff for is a LOUD cover band if my mic got messed up.
...Or, you could just learn to control the Dukoff...

Of course, then again, I used a Sugal Super Gonz II in high school, so what do I know...
 
#80 ·
For the record, some of what Phil's getting at, especially the mpc scales, is covered in David Liebman's "Developing a Personal Saxophone Sound." And if I remember correctly, Liebman (who was an Allard student) was somewhat out of practice and could only get a 5 note scale out, not a full octave.

Later
 
#83 ·
Phil Barone said:
Actually, I can make them real nice. Phil
You could probably make a marshmallow play real nice if you tried hard enough. Then if you got hungry while playing you could just eat it.

Controlling the volume of the Dukoff is not a problem, making the squeeks not come out is not a huge issue. The biggest problem I have is getting a good sound out of it, one that does not sound like a squeek could happen at any minute. I know a retired pro who just moved to my city from New York and bought a Dukoff (I went shopping with him and he wanted my Dukoff, but that is a long story), and I am going to ask if I can borrow his old Link and see if it makes a difference

I did the overtone thing on bari today at school before the game I had to play for. It worked untill I got to B. I think with a better mouthpiece/reed and practice I could get it. Tenor *should* be mush easier.
 
#85 ·
Wow

Selmer's_glu said:
I'm quoting this guys post from the "Teal vs. Joe' thread, because it is an excellent explanation of the Allard thing...and is coming from my friend, Andrew Sterman, who is one of the people who told me a lot about Allard. (Although I had been using the Allard approach for many years, before meeting Andrew)
I said I was done with this board. It was a result of guys being caught up in horns and mouthpiece nonsense. Selmerglu's post with the Sterman quote is the best information on how to play the horn that I have ever seen on this board. It's the REAL DEAL.
 
#86 · (Edited)
Virtually everyone overthinks the embouchure thing. I'm convinced. Pick a concept, stick with that, then experiment. What my teacher drilled into me is that the embouchure is a concept more than anything: your concept of it shapes it and determines your success in its development. Have a strong fundamental concept of the embouchure in mind and you can't help but improve. Phil's exercises and ideas are good for conceptual learning. These are good concepts as laid out by Allard, Teal, and others:

- focus from the corners
- seal off the air
- pressure from the jaw, just enough for control
- pressure from the facial muscles, just enough for control
- take enough bottom lip in to control the reed
- try not to bite

The common theme being that you should use just as much effort as is required, and no unnecessary force.

But this is probably the most fundamental that is often overlooked: the embouchure is supported by the airstream and the throat first and foremost. A "good embouchure" doesn't mean jack if these much more important aspects aren't together. A lot of amateurs sound bad, not because of their embouchures, but they sound bad because of their unfamiliarity with manipulation of the airstream and the throat. Just play the flute for a while and you will become intimately familiar with the importance of the airstream. Play the clarinet and you will become intimately familiar with the importance of the throat in shaping the tone. Brecker was a tremendous flute player!!
 
#87 ·
Razzy said:
Virtually everyone overthinks the embouchure thing. I'm convinced. Pick a concept, stick with that, then experiment. What my teacher drilled into me is that the embouchure is a concept more than anything: your concept of it shapes it and determines your success in its development. Have a strong fundamental concept of the embouchure in mind and you can't help but improve. Phil's exercises and ideas are good for conceptual learning. These are good concepts as laid out by Allard, Teal, and others:

- focus from the corners
- seal off the air
- pressure from the jaw, just enough for control
- pressure from the facial muscles, just enough for control
- take enough bottom lip in to control the reed
- try not to bite

The common theme being that you should use just as much effort as is required, and no unnecessary force.

But this is probably the most fundamental that is often overlooked: the embouchure is supported by the airstream and the throat first and foremost. A "good embouchure" doesn't mean jack if these much more important aspects aren't together. A lot of amateurs sound bad, not because of their embouchures, but they sound bad because of their unfamiliarity with manipulation of the airstream and the throat. Just play the flute for a while and you will become intimately familiar with the importance of the airstream. Play the clarinet and you will become intimately familiar with the importance of the throat in shaping the tone. Brecker was a tremendous flute player!!
First, Teal's method was VERY different. I use him as an example of what not to do. Second, the diaphram is probably the first and foremose factor in supporting the air stream. Everything else is fine but unnessary but I do apreciate your input. PLEASE, let's just focus on the first post of mine or it will become too complicated for the players that are new to this.

I'm trying to keep the exercises simple. Stay away from anything that implys "Sealing off the air". That's a given and it shouldn't really be spoken of because it may be implyed that one must USE the facial muscles. The facial muscles should be very loose, as loose as possible. Phil
 
#88 ·
Uh-oh,

Worked on Phil's exercises last night.............. I could do D down to Bb just fine, but could barely do E, and couldn't get middle F to speak (without the octave key) at all!! Just the opposite of what Phil posted............ any ideas? Yeah, I know............ practice!!
 
#89 ·
alsdiego said:
Uh-oh,

Worked on Phil's exercises last night.............. I could do D down to Bb just fine, but could barely do E, and couldn't get middle F to speak (without the octave key) at all!! Just the opposite of what Phil posted............ any ideas? Yeah, I know............ practice!!
Something doesn't sound right. The F should be the easiest and you're not suppose to use the octave key at all. Below c# it all gets harder so I don't know what you're doing. Remember, it should be very clean when going from note to note. Phil
 
#90 ·
Phil Barone said:
Something doesn't sound right. The F should be the easiest and you're not suppose to use the octave key at all. Below c# it all gets harder so I don't know what you're doing. Remember, it should be very clean when going from note to note. Phil
Phil - I still haven't gotten a clear answer. Are these octave slurs or octave smears -as in Rhapsody in Blue clarinet solo- with all the indeterminate pitches in the smear down being sounded? Thanks.
 
#91 ·
gary said:
Phil - I still haven't gotten a clear answer. Are these octave slurs or octave smears -as in Rhapsody in Blue clarinet solo- with all the indeterminate pitches in the smear down being sounded? Thanks.
I don't know what to call them. You finger low F, while playing middle F and what I call SLIDE into low F. Go chromatically down to Bb. Phil
 
#93 ·
Okay, I'll ask again as did a couple of other people. How, exactly, does one play a scale on a mouthpiece only? What is the objective? What note should you hear first? Which direction do you try to play, up or down? What do you change to change notes? Finally, does the success of this exercise program depend on being able to do it?
 
#94 ·
Al,

One plays a scales on a mouthpiece essentially the same way as one sings a scale. So how do you sing a scale? I don't know. I just kind of hear the note internally before it comes out and then it does. (really. i don't know if anyone has ever explained to me the internal physics of how we change notes while we sing.)

Start on a high note (i believe i suggested A or Bb earlier) and let your own ear and larynx do the rest. The benefit of doing this is that you become master of the sound and pitch that comes out of your mouthpiece (and then horn when you put the mouthpiece back on it :) ) This is when you are playing the horn and not having the horn play you.

Play the scale going down. And then go back up.

This excercise and the one Phil described help each other out. One doesn't help the other any more than the other helps the one.

I hope this helps.
 
#95 ·
Al Stevens said:
Okay, I'll ask again as did a couple of other people. How, exactly, does one play a scale on a mouthpiece only? What is the objective? What note should you hear first? Which direction do you try to play, up or down? What do you change to change notes? Finally, does the success of this exercise program depend on being able to do it?
Playing the scales was very difficult for me on the mpc alone. To play a scale you definitely have to take in more mouthpiece, well in my experience anyway. With less mouthpiece it was extremely difficult/impossible for me. I also rely on tongue position when going to different intervals. I'm hoping someone can chime in with better advice. I'm not one of the best in descriptions :|
 
#96 · (Edited)
Al Stevens said:
Okay, I'll ask again as did a couple of other people. How, exactly, does one play a scale on a mouthpiece only? What is the objective? What note should you hear first? Which direction do you try to play, up or down? What do you change to change notes? Finally, does the success of this exercise program depend on being able to do it?
I've found (as I am just starting out with this) that it works best for me to start in the middle and develop my range from there. So far I am up to seven diatonic notes, not quite at the octave yet. I'm using my throat as a way of changing the air stream much like I would if I were singing a scale with one constant "ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh" sound.

Somebody jump up if I'm doing it wrong.
 
#97 ·
gary said:
Phil - I still haven't gotten a clear answer. Are these octave slurs or octave smears -as in Rhapsody in Blue clarinet solo- with all the indeterminate pitches in the smear down being sounded? Thanks.
I was instructed to play these octave exercizes as clean as a good trumpet player would slurring between octaves. That is; two pitches that are in tune and without any noise or additional pitches between them.
 
#99 ·
Thanks Phil

I've been playing everyday for about a year what you've suggested.

I still have a little problem with the lower notes when playing with the mouthpiece only.

The octave jumps (slur) without the octave key are doing well. I feel a change only in my throat when I make the changes in octave. That feeling is all that happens and nothing else is required other than staying loose in the mouth.

Looking forward to your next suggestion to improve tone.

Thanks Phil. Your right about trying to help others. We all should be in this life so that we can try to help others get through it.
 
#100 ·
Phil Barone said:
Remember, it should be very clean when going from note to note. Phil
This implies simply jumping down the octave, cleanly, without slurring in between. It's a good exercise. If I understand it correctly, you're basically playing the first overtone, then moving cleanly down to the fundamental, one octave below.
 
#101 ·
JL said:
This implies simply jumping down the octave, cleanly, without slurring in between. It's a good exercise. If I understand it correctly, you're basically playing the first overtone, then moving cleanly down to the fundamental, one octave below.
What I meant by using the word "slur" was that I'm changing octaves without tounging. The note changes and you can feel "that thing" in your throat.
 
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