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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#625 ·
"I think a big point to realise is that in neither field are there many careers to be had."
quote Pete Thomas..

I don't understand why you make this sort of statement every chance you get. If one is competent, versatile and willing to go where the work is, one can make a fine living. I'll be the first to agree that there isn't much work for the average and the lazy or those expecting more than they deserve based on what they have to offer. Or is that what you mean to say?
 
#632 ·
Um I didn't read the whole discussion here, but do you change your embouchure when your playing classical and jazz? Or would the allard way work better for classical compared to the teal way. I'm really confused about it since ive been learning only from classical players yet they tell me I sound more like a jazz player especially because I don't have a proper embouchure for classical.
And is there a method in which houlik uses?
I'm primarily a tenor player because I only have a tenor horn
 
#633 ·
I'm not certain how to answer this, because the I only took a few lessons form Dave Tofani. He's a classically trained musician who also does jazz and studio work, and who worked with and studied with Joe Allard, who was a classical musician. Allard was primarily a classical clarinet player, and his method is equally applicable to the clarinet. Allard's method develops your embouchure, regardless of the type of music you're playing. I've never studied Teal's method extensively, but Allard and Teal had very different approaches, although they were both great players and teachers. Teal stressed a circular embouchure, while Allard placed his upper teeth on the top of the mouthpiece.

If your goal is to be a classical saxophonist, then you should probably work on developing a sound that will blend well with those that you're playing with. Having a more developed and flexible embouchure will make you a better player, regardless of your chosen musical genre. Doing overtone exercises and long tones will improve your stamina and sound, but the most important key to developing a style and tone is listening to players who are considered masters of your chosen genre, and who you admire.

Listening to the type of music that you want to play will improve your tonal conception and will allow you to blend better with those you're playing with. Listen extensively to classical saxophone players, pick a player whose tone you like and try to emulate that tone. You'll never be able to sound exactly the same as someone else, but you'll develop a tone and phrasing that is proper to your idiom only through listening. You should acquire a large collection of CDs of players who you admire and those who are considered masters of their craft, and then listen to them often and actively. Don't just buy CDs from the most recent players, or of players that you recognize. Buy some sort of guide to classical music and seek out as many sax players as you can find from that guide, who are considered great players. Also, listen to players of other instruments. If you want to master an idiom, you must immerse yourself in its sound.
Good luck,
Heath
 
#634 ·
I've been reading that forum for a while finding it very usefull and interesting. A lot of good advises given and an extreordinary horn players proving to have a "heart of brass". I came back to practising after 10 years break. Following the advise I have bought alto vito sax and vandoren V16 A6 with medium opening. The key issue is to produce my own good sound so I play long tones for 30 minutes every day, but after I'd found that thread I've started to do Phil's exercises. I have a lot of problems with it. Is my mouthpiece not good for that? I have bought that vandoren because it supposed to give a clasical jazz sound of '50s. My sax guru and no doubt the best alto player ever (in my opinion) is Cannonball. And I just love his rich, full beautifull sound.
 
#639 ·
I stumbled across this thread about 10 days ago while I was looking through SOTW archives to ensure a question I had was not already discussed at length...

And man what did I read! The single largest 'jump' in my tone since I first started playing. Phil's advice to take more mouthpiece in has made a HUGE difference.

When I first inserted a piece of paper in between the reed and mouthpiece face (sliding it forward util it stops), I was astonished at how far up/deep onto the mouthpiece the gap closed. My teeth marks are a decent 1/2" (1.5cm) away, towards the tip. I play an Otto Link STM and the gap closed at the very top of the bite shield.

My first attempt at playing where this gap closed almost made me gag! It felt very uncomfortable. I play bari, and the OTLSTM isn't a svelt piece.

After about 90 minutes of playing this way the first time, my jaw was quite sore. It felt like when you do chin-ups or press-ups and change hand positions- I was clearly using different jaw muscles. 1 1/2 weeks in, the piece feels comfortable in my mouth but my jaw still gets tired- I guess I'm still building chops?

But something superb has happened- my sound has exploded. I've moved closer to sounding like the tone I have in my mind's eye that ever before.

The idea allowing as much of the reed to vibrate before it is dampened by the lig makes intuitive sense. And you can hear it so clearly- playing on the tip of the mouthpiece pinches the sound, taking more piece in opens you up.
 
This post has been deleted
#642 · (Edited by Moderator)
...
Tobias
Go back to a 6 opening and take in more of the piece. Play long tones and scales with an open throat. I've spent hours running upper octave scales and playing little melodies with Matt Ottos drones to get better tone and intonation in the top of the horn. Slowly but surely it's working. I'd be willing to bet that you are fighting against a tip opening that is too big for you, as I was
 
#643 ·
Saxpunter is right. At least search this forum for Phil Barone's tone production exercises. Better yet, write him at his own domain. He's generous with his advice and then you won't have to read all the blah, blah from detractors. Phil recommends, and I've found he's right, to take in way more mouthpiece. Lipping just the tip will spell long term trouble and weak tone.
 
#644 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I'll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There's no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it's just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it's in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to "try" in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
I don't under stand. How do you go from middle F to low F with just your throat? Are you talking about a slur down to low F?
 
#648 ·
He's telling you to play overtones, jumping between octaves using only your throat and air stream. There is a lot of discussion on this elsewhere on the forum, and you should probably read that to get a good understanding of the concept. However for the purposes of Phil's exercise you just jump octaves, not up into the higher overtones.

Phil, thanks for starting this thread. I've learnt heaps from doing exercises this way and my tone has improved significantly. Only wish I could spend more time driving my neighbours made with this.

As far as how much mouthpiece to take, I aim for about where the reed diverges from the mouthpiece.
 
#645 ·
No........not "....just your throat". Phil said "do it with the air stream AND [editor's emphasis] while opening your throat."

Try it. Phil is very right: take in way more mouthpiece than you think you should at first.
 
#646 ·
I wrote the moderator on this subforum to delete my post, at it does not reflect my personal opinion, and was no more than a childish outburst. In addition it doesn't even belong on this thread. What was i thinking?
now OP
I've been doing this exercise on my soprano (selmer SA80 s2, selmer c*) and tenor (selmer sa80 s2, wolfe tayne). And man, it certaintly got me somewhere. I've become much more aware of how to use my diaghram, and my tone has developed on both the horns. I cannot do the exercises perfectly, and will continue practising. THANK YOU PHIL. And thank you -88- and saxpunter for your advice to my previous post. Yes, i will practise this exercise with drones and yes i will take in more mouthpiece
 
#647 ·
Phil,

Thank you for this thread
(although I haven't read all of it as I'm more interested in the tips than the debate)

You can see the shiny bit where my teeth normally sit (my teeth arn't straight :mrgreen:)
Bumper Automotive exterior Tool Automotive lighting Wood
Hood Automotive lighting Tool Bumper Headlamp


Taking in more mouthpiece I tried resting my teeth right at the very top of the mouthpiece patch (this is further than the standart bite plate goes) and I found I can still play and it actually made going back to my "normal" position feel a bit dull and muffled. I tried even going past the mouthpiece patch onto the metal but it just uncontrollable there so I think I'm right on the boarder of squealing and playing.
 
#663 ·
Re : Re: Tone Production

Phil,

Thank you for this thread
(although I haven't read all of it as I'm more interested in the tips than the debate)

You can see the shiny bit where my teeth normally sit (my teeth arn't straight :mrgreen:)
View attachment 35186 View attachment 35187

Taking in more mouthpiece I tried resting my teeth right at the very top of the mouthpiece patch (this is further than the standart bite plate goes) and I found I can still play and it actually made going back to my "normal" position feel a bit dull and muffled. I tried even going past the mouthpiece patch onto the metal but it just uncontrollable there so I think I'm right on the boarder of squealing and playing.
It's great to have pictures to show the real thing.

I appreciate.

Thanks!
 
#650 ·
Dear Phil:
You say: " YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn"
I am totally with you on this sentence. so I decided to put more time on long tones and exercises to improve my tone.
But, Of course, the mouthpiece and horn must meet minimun requeriments to allow you get a nice tone.
If you make a rank, of the relative importance of the three factors:
1.- You ( embouchure)
2.- mouthpiece
3.- Horn
How much percentage would you assign to each one?
Example :
1.- embouchure 80%
2.- mouthpiece ( example: Otto link Tone edge for tenor) : 15%
3.- horn ( Yamaha YTS-23 ): 5%

What percentages do you consider , best represent the relative importance of each one?
How much may I improve my tone ( If I have a well developed embouchure) if I change my Tone Edge,( at the example) to a more " sophisticated " mouthpiece ?
Same for the horn : How much may I improve my tone ( ( If I have a well developed embouchure) changing from YTS23 to Selmer or Yanagisawa?
My decision is to spend MORE time practicing to obtain a good tone and mantain my actual mouthpiece ( (PhilTone Eclipse on Tenor) and stay with my horn.
I appreciate your opinion , and other forum members, in the relative importance of this three key factors.
Best wishes
Humbardi
 
#651 · (Edited)
Hi!

First, let me thank you for the great tips and exercises, Phil. I started doing them three days ago, and I can already notice some success! However, I have some problems I’d like to ask you about and I’d be forever in debt if you could help me out.

Short story about my sax experience (Skip reading this paragraph unless you find it interesting): I started playing alto at the age of seven on a rented instrument – my teacher was a clarinetist that thought me to bite in order to control. When I had to buy my own saxophone, I got a vintage beucher (god knows why) that did not play were well and was sharp in the upper register which led me to try and “bend” down the pitch with my lower lip/teeth. Understandably, I lost interest in playing. But about half a year ago I realized how much I love jazz. Thus, I bought a tenor (YTS – 62), a mouthpiece (Theo Wanne, Brahma 7*) and got going. (Best thing I’ve ever done.)

Recently I realized that I play with my mouthpiece very far out on the cork – a sign that my embouchure was too tight. Also, my mid/upper register was always sharp (from about G/Ab and up, though Ab is worst.) After reading this thread, I know that I’ve been biting (which I shouldn’t) and tensing up while playing. After doing the exercise in this thread and consciously trying to relax my embouchure and keep it fixed I’ve managed to push in the MPC to a place on the cork which I think is good. I’ve also been eating more of the MPC.

These are the questions I have for you:
1. While consciously relaxing my embouchure I can now play in tone. Though when my mind slips ever so slightly, I go sharp in G,Ab. I also notice that the “sides” of my mouth tense up when this happens (and it happens a lot). Is there any exercise I can do to remedy this? (I understand that years of bad habits will take time to change)
2. I can now do the F – F, E – E Eb – Eb without changing my embouchure as prescribed in the exercise. I do, however, notice quite significant movement in my throat/neck (the area at the side of the adam’s apple, below the jaw on the neck) expands. Is this supposed to happen or am I doing something incorrectly?
3. When relaxing my embouchure my high Eb (palm-keys) and upward goes flat. Should tone-imagination be enough to bring it in tune? (I can add that while blowing the mpc on the neck only, I produce a concert Eb)
4. While practicing the “new” embouchure a muscle (try biting your teeth together real hard while putting your hands on the cheecks: feel those muscles pointing on the cheeks? That’s the muscle I’m talking about) has been getting tired. Again, am I doing something incorrectly?
5. The sound I’m getting is reaaaally loud but also quite “brash” – I’m guessing I just have problems with control, but I thought I’d mention it.

Thank you very much, I much appreciate what you are doing for me and, as I am sure of, several others.

/Eirik
 
#653 ·
There's a million opinions about all of this kind of stuff... interesting to see this thread still going. I agree a lot with Phil about mouthpiece stuff being secondary, good tone production tips (pretty standard and proven exercises, imo).

Only thing I have to add, is about taking in more mouthpiece...generally, I think beginner and intermediate players maybe tend not to take enough mouthpiece. Not saying it needs to be waay more mouthpiece, each player and mouthpiece probably has a "sweet spot." I still have to check to keep myself honest at times...

The exercises commonly attributed to Allard - overtone studies, overtone matching, octave slurs without the octave key...I'm thinking most advanced players put a good amount of time on these activities whether they play "classical" or jazz sax....
 
#655 ·
Have to disagree a bit on value of studying classical/contemporary saxophone. Appreciate the "no such thing" comment (period-wise), I've tried to stop using "legit" saxophone to reference that type of playing, but "classical" usually refers to a period before saxophone was in existence.

There are wonderful contemporary saxophone works and have been many beautiful "classical" saxophone players over the years... Mule, Londeix, Sinta, Pittel, Delangle, Rousseau, Lulloff, etc. I think there's a good deal of value with studying "classical" or non-jazz repetoire, even if it's just studies like Ferling, Klose, etc.

As far as the "market" for this type of playing, Phil's on point I guess. It seems to be a very specialized style with limited marketability from a performance perspective. Not exactly a lucrative proposition. I would suspect the majority of accomplished players earn a significant portion of income through teaching and clinics...and many also play jazz.

Still, all the major orchestras have saxophonists "on call" for works which include parts for saxophones. Non-jazz performance opportunities such as pit orchestra work and limited recital engagements are out there. Many less than jazz or pop/rock performance. I tend to view all music performance situations as a labor of love anyhow...
 
#656 ·
Interresting coments on mp positions.Have done much experimentation over the decades,& have found that the most natural position,as dictated by feel,is in fact not only the best but also the strongest for ones own make up.Possibly too much thinking is not so advisable.Best to all.Wolfswing.
 
#657 ·
I could not agree more.
There are far to many variables involved to make dogmatic statements regarding how much mouthpiece to take in.
The reed is the one factor whereby the nuances of the horn can be manipulated, coaxed & caressed.
Too much mouthpiece, ie. beyond the start of the facing & the reed is a loose canon....out of control; probably ideal for honking in a marching band! :bluewink:
One of the re-facers here shewed a photograph of Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis' Link...it was bitten through at the lower edge of the bite plate....& he could play a bit.
Also, Pete Thomas is always advocating taking in not too much, to allow more control of the reed; & there's not a lot wrong with his playing.

With regard to jumping between F2 & F1 with the same fingering & without the octave key....I have just tried it....easy, what's the problem?
There is, for all of us a "sweet spot" that only experience can determine....a point where the player, is in control.
Too much mouthpiece taken in & the reed is control.
 
#660 ·
Hi Captain.Yes i agree completely.However there is one other point worth considering;Over time one may develop bad position habits,which may need to be observed at times to effect a correction.This can happen without awareness as it may be gradual.Even the great trumpeter Roy Eldridge had to alter his method mid career.So if it can happen at that level it pays to be vigilant & make sure our own natural way is uncontaminated.So keep the vibes.Wolfswing.
 
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