Sax on the Web Forum banner

Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
See less See more
#563 ·
I don't think it's really a modernist vs traditionalist argument, lots of 'modernists' use vibrato to some extent. Albert Ayler used tons of vibrato as did many of the other '60s avant-garde guys. Trane used it, albeit sparingly.

It's just another tool to have up your sleeve. Yes, jazz players don't use as much vibrato as they did in the '30s and there's nothing wrong with this but to reject it outright because you don't want to be seen as unfashionable is not a good idea, imo.
 
#564 ·
I think that Phil has given some great pointers regarding tone development on this thread. You don't have to agree with his opinion on vibrato, but I think that is best left for another thread. Lets keep this on topic for the sake of those who would still like to learn.
 
#568 ·
You don't have to agree with his opinion on vibrato, but I think that is best left for another thread. Lets keep this on topic for the sake of those who would still like to learn.
The question of vibrato is totally on topic, most people agree it as an integral part of the tone and expression of the saxophone. If the method being taught precludes or restricts the use of vibrato, then I think some healthy and respectful (please take note, Phil) discussion is totally on topic.

I will go further and say that taking in too much mouthpiece can restrict the use of the tongue, and this can have a negative effect on articulation, also a very significant factor in the perception of tone on the saxophone.

This is all from the point of view of learning to become a well rounded player (either pro amateur), as opposed to becoming a specialist in just one style in which the use of vibrato or versatile articulation may not be necessary.
 
#565 ·
Ok, good point. Back to the TOPIC.

I was a brass player for most of my life. Opening the throat is of course of huge importance. As I play tenor more I find the parallel exact. The throat must be open. Question is, how does one do that?

The principal operator for the throat when playing is the tongue. I have, and I bet you have, experimented with tongue positions during playing. Lowering the tongue deep into the lower jaw and lowering the tongue root as low as possible enhances openness of the throat. You can hear your tone expand as you do so.

Of course, the tongue also serves as a venturi to control the velocity of the air stream so as you go up the register, it helps to accelerate the air stream and the tongue can accomplish this if you arch it and raise the middle of the tongue to compress the air stream and speed it up.

Play with it, the throat may close a bit as you raise the tongue to accelerate the air stream but not too much.

Best,
Rob
 
#566 ·
A good thread on tongue position is . . .

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=111221

which has some links to some others. James Romain's posts are particularly good.

I'm sure there will be some disagreements, but for quite a few of us, a relaxed throat seems to work best, which seems to be when the tongue is in a relaxed state, which for most people is at least somewhat arched. This keeps the back of the tongue from obstructing the airflow, and the arched tongue keeps airspeed high even when air volume is low. For myself, this is true in all registers, although there are subtle changes in the shape of the tongue between different registers, at different volumes, to adjust for pitch, etc. Essentially, the sides of the back of my tongue touch the insides/back of my upper molars all the time (much like I was whistling or saying the syllable EE).

I'm sure things are changing in my throat while I play, but I am not actively manipulating anything. I have done many, many hours of overtone exercises in my lifetime though, and my students have commented that they can see a significant change in my throat/neck when I move into altissimo, but once again, I'm not "doing" anything and my tongue is not moving from that general position.

Thanks!
 
#567 ·
Pete,

You said it well. When I said the tongue was low I really didn't want to imply that it was in a state of tension to get it lower. A relaxed throat and tongue should provide a low tongue root and open throat with a bit of natural arch as you described.

Good points all,
Rob
 
#570 ·
Pete,

On that subject, I reckon that everybody gets to be mostly right, by far my favorite outcome.

How about we might agree that, over the decades of recorded jazz, the intensity and style of vibrato use has ameliorated and softened. Clearly the broad 1920s vibrato of Frankie Trumbauer and Illinois Jacquet is no longer in vogue. This argues that there are stylistic changes in vibrato use.

Throughout the '40s, the big band and solo greats tastefully used vibrato to color their phrases but not as an essential part of their tone. Listen to the understated and thoughtful solo by Lester Young in the 1957 recording of "Fine and Mellow" . His is the second after Ben Webster's solid but main stream solo. I reckon this solo by Prez to be the finest and most soulful blues solo known to me. And, although slow, uses almost no vibrato.

Later, the tend prevailed but good musicianship just is. Like a vocalist - and I ascribe to the theory that had the sax been with us always, vocal speech would have been unnecessary - the saxophonist uses all the voices to make the statement. Stan Getz was super cool and a hint of vibrato increases the emotion and depth of his music. Hell, I use it in ballads like "The Nearness of You"

So we can all be right, and wrong. In music it hardly ever works to totally involve or exclude anything. Use vibrato in bop or its derivatives and get snickered at. Play "Georgia" without and lose the audience. It is a color on our musical pallet. Like chartreuse, it is to be used sparingly.

Rob
 
#571 ·
How about we might agree that, over the decades of recorded jazz, the intensity and style of vibrato use has ameliorated and softened.
Well I certainly think it changes over the years, in some styles it has certainly softened but in other styles it's quite intense, e.g. some funk and smooth jazz, e.g. David Sanborn or Kenny G. I'm involved with doing recording sessions for TV and film and I get asked to play in many styles, some quite old and some quite new and even experimental. I find that the different vibratos range form very subtle to very intense. The only time I play with little vibrato would be for some classical and jazz styles, but mostly I need a bit more, but especially what I need is control and versatility, which brings us right back on topic:

In order to get the versatility demanded in my work I have had to work very hard on embouchure, and the most important aspect for versatility is to not take in too much mouthpiece. It is restricting when you need a wide tonal range.
 
#572 ·
This thread was started by Phil Barone to give pointers on tone production and pass on techniques he learned studying with Joe Allard. I don't understand why some people are turning this into a debate! It seems like this is making something that was meant to be about education, confusing.

It's okay to have a different approach, that is one of the great things about playing the saxophone--there is more than one way to do it. But it seems more practical to start another thread than snip at the OP.
 
#573 ·
This thread was started by Phil Barone to give pointers on tone production and pass on techniques he learned studying with Joe Allard. I don't understand why some people are turning this into a debate! It seems like this is making something that was meant to be about education, confusing.

It's okay to have a different approach, that is one of the great things about playing the saxophone--there is more than one way to do it. But it seems more practical to start another thread than snip at the OP.
Ya, I totally agree with you!! I had to weed through all the posts to get to what was being taught here. Any way, I've been doing the exercises for about a week now and my sound is getting big, full and husky!! I called Phil this morning and talked with him about the exercises. What a sweetheart he is, very friendly and sincere. I'm going to buy one of his "Jazz" tenor mouthpieces. Can't wait to get it!!
 
#575 ·
One thing we may be forgetting is the different internal shape of our mouths, jaw structure, lip thickness, etc. For example, a person who tends to have an underbite will take in less mouthpiece since his lower jaw is already protruding farther in than his upper jaw, giving the appearance of having taken in less mouthpiece. An overbite type will take in more to get his lower jaw closer to his optimum distance. Thinner lips may give the appearance of less mouthpiece and vice-versa.

I personally get the best control and tone with my lips either right over the breakpoint where the reed separates from the facing or just slightly more. Too much, as has been suggested here, causes me to lose control not only of my vibrato but a general feeling of loss of control of other aspects of my tone. if I take in too little, my tone thins out and becomes smaller. I have found my optimum position which seems to be less than what Phil is suggesting for everyone.

My biggest improvement in how big my tone sounds has been when I learned how to relax my throat more, relax the tongue, etc. as has already been suggested by other posters.

I use vibrato in varying degrees depending on style of music and song, and I'm not ashamed to admit it!!:D
 
#588 ·
This thread is veering towards closure, due to a lack of civility, which would be a shame. I would remind all that this is a discussion forum, and that no ideas are immune to scrutiny or challenge. The valid ones will be strengthened in the process, and the weak ones will fall by the wayside.

That's how discourse works.
 
#590 ·
I understood the "taking in more" as a good exercize for the air stream.
And "taking in less" as a good exercize for the embouchure.

Both way was good to understand what effects what.

I believe a good air stream and a relaxed embouchure is the key which both exercize will help.But if the good air stream comes first, other things will be easy.
 
#591 ·
I understood the "taking in more" as a good exercize for the air stream.
And "taking in less" as a good exercize for the embouchure.
Absolutely. Players should experiment with both and hopefully end up with what is right for their needs. There are other exercises to help with airstream.

An interesting thing about taking in more mouthpiece as an exercise is it may force a player to open their mouth (and therefore throat) more. The same can be done with applying thick patches to the beak. The big problem comes when taking in more becomes a playing habit rather than an exercise, and if it results in the player having less control over articulation. It is harder to tongue with more mouthpiece in (unless you have a very short tongue). Plus you also have less control over pitch - the further the lower lip is from the reed tip, the harder it is to adjust pitch for vibrato, bending and tuning.

No problem of course if you don't need any of those things.
 
#592 ·
I have followed this Phil Barone Tone Production discussion since its beginning and I have seen in its wake quite a few younger and less experienced players who's development by their own admission has been negatively affected by the "You Can Never Take In Too Much Mouthpiece" statement that is the core mantra of Phil's approach.

Taking in more mouthpiece may well be a valid suggestion to an advanced player with well developed embouchure control from years of playing to increase the intensity of his sound. The same advice to a less experienced player of any age who is still working to develop their embouchure and control of the sound can be quite detrimental if they are still at that place in their development where they lack even the ability to control "less of the mouthpiece", let alone more.

Giving exaggerated "one size fits all" advice like this also completely ignores the large number of players who are working to develop a tonal concept to be able to play in symphonic bands, sax quartets, musicals, and to perform selections from the great classical solo literature written for the instrument. It goes without saying that taking in more of the mouthpiece right to the edge of where the lip has any control over the vibration of the reed is not conducive to the nuanced control demands of classical playing style. Whether or not one believes that anyone can make a living playing classical saxophone is beside the point.

That any technique or method can be traced by to Joe Allard's teaching must be viewed in the context that all of his students were very accomplished players on the instrument before they became students of his. To throw those ideas and methods out as advice for less experienced players, in my opinion is ill advised and shortsighted.

My view is that teaching others how to play a musical instrument should also be subject to the common interpretation of the Hippocratic Oath for physicians which is: FIRST DO NO HARM.

John
 
#593 ·
Taking in more mouthpiece may well be a valid suggestion to an advanced player with well developed embouchure control from years of playing to increase the intensity of his sound. The same advice to a less experienced player of any age who is still working to develop their embouchure and control of the sound can be quite detrimental if they are still at that place in their development where they lack even the ability to control "less of the mouthpiece", let alone more.
Exactly my thoughts, and as some of you may be aware, jbtsax and I have had disputes over the very subject of advising what may be fine for pros can be bad for beginners. But this is really so crucial, much more than our original beef over lip embouchure I will bury any hatchet in that regard. It is so dangerous to tell people they must take in more mouthpiece or that they can't take in too much I really don't care how unpopular that makes me. This advice can harm people and so I will stand by my principles and say what I think. Many people may hate me for that, but all I can do is state my beliefs honestly. People need to take in the right amount. Not too much, not too little.
That any technique or method can be traced by to Joe Allard's teaching must be viewed in the context that all of his students were very accomplished players on the instrument before they became students of his. To throw those ideas and methods out as advice for less experienced players, in my opinion is ill advised and shortsighted.
Joe Allard is one of my heros. His teaching methods were not dogmatic and I don't think he ever said you can't take in too much mouthpiece, or that you should take in gobs of mouthpiece. If he said that to Phil Barone then I believe that is what he thought best for Phil Barone.
 
#594 ·
Phil said from the very beginning of this thread that this method for tone production is not for beginners, it's for people who are already well established players looking to develop their own sound.
 
#598 ·
Phil,

That was the most childish Dummy Spit I've seen in a long time.

You, and others, are regular offenders as far as bullying goes on this forum. When challenged (and politely, which is to Pete's credit) your "carry on like a big sheila's blouse" response, evoked memories of days long past, can anyone say Liebman???

Go ahead and YAGE if you so desire. I don't know that players of Pete Thomas' character, skill generosity and demeanour, grow on trees in NYC. I do know that self appointed Gurus and Bullys are a dime a dozen on this forum.

Take your fellow bully boys with you and don't let the door hit you in the ***** on the way out.
 
#603 ·
I have followed this thread for over a year and I have tried Phil's exercises. Although I'm only an intermediate player I have found that Phil's advice re. 'you can't take in too much mouthpiece' has been helpful to me. I have a tendency to creep back to taking in too little mouthpiece even after playing with a lot of mouthpiece.
Phil seems sincere with his intentions and his first-hand observations about players re. the amount of mouthpiece. The thing I have learnt is that although initially taking in a lot of mouthpiece creates a big honking ugly sound it does force you into some good habits and helps you create a bigger sound.
But....Pete Thomas is also right to suggest that there is a point that will be optimum beyond which might cause problems but it seems that 'optimum' might be further in than many people believe, which is Phil's, and this thread's point.

Two good guys who need to kiss and make up. It would be a poorer place without either of them
 
#612 ·
Remember I am only an intermediate player but I'll try to explain what I understand from all this and what I've got out of the thread.

Firstly, I don't find it easy to get bottom Csharp,B and Bflat and I found Phil Barone's exercise from this thread very useful....the one when you play the first harmonic of F then attempt to drop down the octave, then E 1st harmonic (without the octave key) dropping down to bottom E etc continuing on until bottom Bflat. I hope you all remember the exercise!!

Now I found this exercise helpful in becoming aware,through trial and error, of what is required to achieve a good full sound low down. To get low B flat to 'pop' out is still not easy for me but in trying this exercise out (I never got around to Phil's 2nd exercise) I found I needed to put in more mouthpiece than I had been using, also to relax the pressure on my lower lip a little by lowering the jaw slightly and the very elusive opening of the throat. By doing this exercise, which is a great warm-up for me and more fun than those long tones we're all supposed to do, my tone has become stronger for sure.

However, 'feel and real' are not always the same. I frequently find that when I'm practising I'm putting in much less mouthpiece then when I did the exercise but by doing this exercise and reading Phil's posts it keeps me mindful of my tendency to sit safely on the end of the mouthpiece and once I've checked my real position in the mirror by curling my lips back I gobble up a bit more reed again.

Going back to a point Pete Thomas made I think there has to be a trade-off between a huge amount of mouthpiece (and I feel the bottom lip is the relevant point here as the top teeth position can be forward due to an overbit which I have), getting a huge sound and loosing control over pitch bend and vibrato which is surely controlled by the bottom lip and surely there is a point when the reed joins the mouthpiece beyond which the reed cannot be maniputated. I think that as the bottom lip moves further back towards the tip the greater the ability to manipulate the reed (bigger vibrato and easier pitch bends) - I'm only theorising as I'm not the greatest player obviously.
 
#614 ·
Going back to a point Pete Thomas made I think there has to be a trade-off between a huge amount of mouthpiece ...... getting a huge sound and loosing control over pitch bend and vibrato which is surely controlled by the bottom lip and surely there is a point when the reed joins the mouthpiece beyond which the reed cannot be maniputated.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is often a trade off, and I believe everyone should try different positions and be aware of what they are trading off rather than suddenly thinking "oooh, my sound is bigger like this, this must be the way to do it", because (a) you may not yet be aware of what you are losing (e.g. pitch control, high notes subtone etc.) and (b) there could be other ways to get a bigger sound via airstream improvement.
 
#620 ·
Re: Re : Re: Tone Production

I've got a question... I've been doing more mouthpiece-only exercises to start becoming aware of the throat's role in tone production. This in turn has lead to a lot of self-induced yawning. Does this mean that I'm starting to get the hang of it?
Either that, or you're getting bored.:)
 
#622 ·
Maybe to bring the thread back to where it was :

The exercise of Joe Allard ain't so much about "more mouthpiece" as it is about "learning to manipulate your throat in order to get the right intonation, overtones,..." For me, this exercise helped me tonewise in the low and high range, and learnt me a lot about breath support on the fly too.

Regardless about how much mouthpiece I take, I learned through these exercises that I can control pitch with my throat and tongue position too, and that's an extra. Whether or not you take a lot of mouthpiece doesn't make a difference in this respect.

So these exercises learn you "feel" the manipulations you can do on the airstream. And according to my experience, that's a good thing.
 
#623 ·
I hate to join a controversy, but Joe Allard never said to manipulate the overtones using the throat. He said, quoting Marcel Mule, that the best feeling in the throat was "no feeling at all".

There are three variables in manipulating a single reed instrument, and the first is how much reed is in your mouth, how much mouthpiece is a matter of personal physical structure. More reed produces a higher pitch. Joe's overtone exercise involved taking more reed and then pulling the reed out of your mouth without letting go with your jaw. He'd do a deal where you held your jaw with your thumbs to not let go. Joe also would put his finger in the crook and pull the mouthpiece out.

The second variable is air speed. Joe had us breath through the horn and gradually increase air speed until the reed vibrated, producing a sound.

The third variable is literally how hard you bite. Joe had us work on "chewing" on the reed to affect tone-from biting the reed closed to almost no pressure.

He taught effects like sub-toning with your tongue resting on the reed a la Lester Young.

Remember that Joe Allard played his whole career with a full upper denture palte, and that Roger Hamelien was his greatest mentor.

As to the "open throat" Joe said that babies screamed with an "open throat". He advocated an eeee or hehehe position with the tongue relaxed and elevated. This has been referred to as Joe's locked tongue, but that's a misnomer. He freely distributed anatomical diagrams for those who were into that stuff. He also taught a trick where he open his mouth wide and move a piece of paper with his breath from about three feet away.

It's interesting to see his teaching reinterpreted so much. Lieb get's it right every time as does Les Scott in NYC. Tofani plays more like him than anybody I ever met, but they are very alike physically.

Dave in NYC
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top