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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#508 ·
Phil, another question about the mouthpiece scales. If I start the sound with my tongue arched directing the air into the tip, I start with a G (as I'm supposed to). I can then lower the pitch to an F#, an E, and a D by slowly and precisely changing the shape of my arch. However, without fail when I try to go lower than D it bursts into an incredibly high squeak that I can't seem to shake.... Any ideas on what might be causing it?

Thanks so much
 
#509 ·
Phil, another question about the mouthpiece scales. If I start the sound with my tongue arched directing the air into the tip, I start with a G (as I'm supposed to). I can then lower the pitch to an F#, an E, and a D by slowly and precisely changing the shape of my arch. However, without fail when I try to go lower than D it bursts into an incredibly high squeak that I can't seem to shake.... Any ideas on what might be causing it?

Thanks so much
Maybe over blowing butt I can't be certain without seeing it. What kind of mouthpiece are you using? Phil
 
#512 ·
I've just bought a 3* early Great Neck Ebolin Brilhart for my tenor. So will be switching from my s80 c as soon as it arrives. My tone was quite tight with the s80.
I'm looking for that warm swing sound. Any ideas, which reeds size would work well with the Brilhart and my Buescher aristocrat? I'm currently only on a Rico 1.5 as a beginner.
 
#516 ·
Sorry I posted this in the other thread, not realizing the discussion had been continued here:
On a different topic (albeit one mentioned in your original post), I have been keeping my throat position unchanged throughout the upper register and into the altissimo. I'm making a conscious effort to loosen my embouchure while I'm up there but I can't seem to do that while maintaining a full sound. From what you say in the original post however, it is my embouchure that should remain the same and my throat that should shift in order to hit the higher notes. How should the position of the throat change? Should I close up my throat to speed up the airstream or do the opposite?
 
#517 ·
Dude,

When you do the first exercise you'll notice a subtle shift in your throat, it's just slightly noticeable. That's what you should be looking for and do the second exercise until you're able to make the shift in your throat at will. Call me if you want and have your horn ready. If you do these exercises incorrectly you'll do more harm than good. Phil 212.686.9410
 
#519 ·
Firstly, just wanted to thank everyone for a most entertaining and educational thread, especially Phil.

Secondly, just wanted to clarify something on Allard vs. Teal, in terms of basic approach and tone production. This thread seems to suggest that Allard's approach as described here beats Teal hands down when it comes to embouchure - as a rookie sax player (less than 18 months) I have to take this on faith for now, but it seems to make gut sense to me. At the same time, having read Teal's slim Art of Sax etc book several times over (and having really not got all his stuff about 'tonal concept' much as yet), would I be right in guessing that Allard's approach to embouchure and tone production actually gives you the tools to allow the stuff Teal says about 'tonal concept' to make sense?

Because all that business Teal says about imagining the sound you want and then sort of magically making it happen is a bit mystical for me given his very fixed approach to embouchure as described in the same book. With this Allard approach - to say nothing of the obvious physics stuff to do with letting the reed get on with it as much as possible, controlling it only as much as necessary - seems to me that you can then get access to a wide palette of tones you can choose from at will, once you get it all down.

It's all a bit academic for me right now as I still make the thing sound like a strangled drowning duck most of the time, but I'd like to know whether or not I was at least groping in the right direction.
 
#520 ·
I hope this comment/question relates sufficiently to the thread's theme. If not, disregard it.

Ever since beginning seriously on tenor sax (I'm a trumpet player) and reading about the importance of inserting enough mpc, I've played with what feels like a lot of mpc in my mouth (teeth almost an inch onto the mpc from the tip). I started with the "G on the mpc alone" thing until it sounded great, added the horn a few weeks later, and the first week on the horn I could easily play with a full sound throughout the entire normal range. I've been a school band director and big band trumpet player for a long time, so I know a big full sax sound from both a squawking honk and a thin weak tone.

Using my standard embouchure, I have a big full sound, something I'm really pleased with--except for middle E-flat, which never centers and rings like the other notes. Well, recently, experimenting with various things to help me get a good subtone, I discovered that if I took in just a bit LESS mpc my E-flat resonated much better and centered with a tone like that of all the other notes. One problem, though. My sound thoughout the range was cut back just a bit and the lowest notes are a bit harder to make speak. So, what gives? This effect BTW is totally repeatable. I can go back to my "regular" insertion depth and get a bigger sound on all the notes except middle E-flat. Or I can pull the mpc out a bit and the E-flat resonates again and all the notes lose a little on the loud side of the dynamic range. When looking at the actual amount of change when checking tooth marks on rubber tooth protector, the difference in pull out and shoved in position is a little less than 1/8th inch.

I'd like to keep the big sound AND the nice E-flat.

I'm a sponge for advice. Thanks.
 
#522 ·
I've played with what feels like a lot of mpc in my mouth (teeth almost an inch onto the mpc from the tip).
Wow, that is a lot. I don't believe it's possible to say what is the correct amount but that seems excessive, no wonder things improved when you take in a bit less. Taking in too much can make it easier to play, but IMO this is a short cut to good tone production especially if you want a versatile sound with loudness and edge when you need it but also the ability to get a nice very soft subtone as well. It takes time to work at using less mouthpiece, but I think it's worth it in the long run. I now use a very tiny amount, it really helps my subtone, but I know some people disagree with this (e.g. John Laughter) and I respect that.
 
#524 ·
I'm glad to see there's such unanimity about this. :) It makes a trumpet player feel right at home since we have just as much agreement about how to play ourselves. :)

Phil and Pete, thanks for your input. I'm a pragmatist and will work this out by long practice and experimentation like all great players have. I'm taking you both seriously.

Phil, I'm doing your excercises. Thanks so much. I already have middle D sounding great and rarely feel the need to open in extra holes for it to sound how I want it.

Pete, I love your website and refer to it often. I owe you.

One more question for any of you with ideas. How, when taking in lots of mpc, do you get a subtone thing happening? The only way I've been able to get a good subtone is with less mpc in there.
 
#533 ·
After reading this thread, I'm going to take in a little more mp starting today 24th May. I have a genuine Brilhart NY Great Neck *3.

I notice that it does not feel that comfortable now. But I guess it will in time. I read here that it can take up to two months to reach a really good open tone. So, I shall persevered and report back here after that time with my findings. ;)
 
#536 ·
It won't take that long once you get past the first exercise. I noticed a dramatic change after three weeks of doing the second exercise and it happened in a few minutes. It was wild because all of a sudden I started sounding like Dexter and that's not the sound I was hearing. After that my sound was huge and I got a lot of volume on any mouthpiece I played. Don't worry, it will feel comfortable in no time. Keep the faith. Oh, I think you could do a little better mouthpiece wise though like a Meyer if you're playing alto. I assume you're talking alto. Phil Barone
 
#538 ·
I haven't been a participant in this thread but I've been following since the beginning of tone production I. I have been playing about six years after having not played for 23. I was the president of my high school "Stage" band for three years as well as sax section leader. Played alto back then. Been on tenor since a couple of years ago. JK SX 90R w/ a Sugal KWII 6*. Bottom line- I did the exercises and it has worked- big time. Lots of mouthpiece and all the rest. I had not played with a group since high school (1980) and just kept working on the chops in my closet until Jan. of this year. I was pretty self conscious because I can hear the sound I was striving for and knew I wasn't there yet. I realized I wouldn't get alot better until I got with a group and started playing with them. I joined a concert band in Jan of this year. After just a few weeks of playing I was approached by a guy and asked if I would be interested in joining a swing band he was in. It's a 21 piece Miller style swing band and they're not cheap to hire. I know of plenty of other players that would be better than I am and am very thankful to be playing with that band now. But I also know that it was my tone that got me noticed in the first place and my tone got really fat after I really started working on the principals Phil has lined out in this thread. Thanks for being a stickler for the details Phil and I don't care how much New York attitude you dish out, keep the good advice comming. I have yet to play one of your mpc's and look foreward to trying one someday.
 
#539 ·
I just stumbled on to this thread. I sat and read all 500+ posts the other night and was excited to start with the exercises that Phil has posted. Well, I did them for the first time yesterday. It was easy for me to play middle F to lower F and continue on down the horn to Bb with my regular embouchure, but when I took in more mouthpiece, WOW. It wore me out in about 10 minutes. But I can see how if I keep doing it, I will get a monster sound! Thanks Phil :)
 
#540 ·
I'm also working my way through reading this thread, having only just found it recently. So forgive me if this has already been answered.

I'm starting at exercise one. However, I love to use a lot of vibrato. Obviously it's all about taking in more mp. And since vibrato is achieved by the bottom lip, and the reed is more flexible at it's end point, will I lose any of my vibrato by taking more in further into my mouth?? Or will I just adapt?
 
#541 ·
I'm also working my way through reading this thread, having only just found it recently. So forgive me if this has already been answered.

I'm starting at exercise one. However, I love to use a lot of vibrato. Obviously it's all about taking in more mp. And since vibrato is achieved by the bottom lip, and the reed is more flexible at it's end point, will I lose any of my vibrato by taking more in further into my mouth?? Or will I just adapt?
Oh I'm so great!
 
#550 ·
Pete,

I am certain you have a CD player or a tape player or a record player. With all respect may I most humbly suggest that you spend some time listening to saxophone players recorded since LPs came in. You will notice the absence of vibrato even on ballads. This of course not to include Trad bands or other "retrospective" music groups.

Some players may have what I call a "trailing vibrato" on the end of some phrase notes but only on notes with considerable sustain covering several beats and then only as the tone is withdrawn.

As a re-educated trombone player, an instrument made for vibrato if there ever was one, JJ Johnson taught us to lose vibrato in the late '40s.

Other than a little color on the end of tones on tunes like "Georgia", and certainly not on any bop tune, vibrato is generally, as Phil said, passé on these shores amongst professional musicians.

Maybe it's one of the reasons why our top sax men are constantly being tapped for concerts in the UK, what, what? But, that's just speculation. I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Rob
 
#551 ·
Pete,

I am certain you have a CD player or a tape player or a record player. With all respect may I most humbly suggest that you spend some time listening to saxophone players recorded since LPs came in.
I do listen thank you very much. Plenty of vibrato.

If I couldn't play with vibrato (many different styles, vintage to modern) I wouldn't have survived as a session and touring player, (and made a very good living at it too I might add)

EDIT:
JJ Johnson taught us to lose vibrato in the late '40s.
A saxophone is not a trombone. This is a saxophone forum!
 
#554 ·
Salaam Alakum Laurel,

To be sure, we all search for our own voice. I have a theory that, no matter how one tries to imitate another player, in time your voice will emerge whether you want it to or not. Sort of like Michael Cain's carefully subdued Cockney. If one listens, the Beau Bells ring in that voice once in a while ;-)

Passé' refers to the contemporary style. That style is formed, in professional music, by the tastes and expectations of the audience. Sonny Rollins could tell you how Bird and Dizzy felt on the West Coast in '45. They were almost stoned, the rock thing not the other. Ok, the other as well. Anyway, we can be rebels and true to our art but, as one, I can tell you that it is much more suited to the amateur not dependent on that music for a livelihood.

Thus Endeth the Lecture, Apologies, Ma Salama,
Rob
 
#555 ·
I still don't know anyone using vibrato much in contemporary music and I know an awful lot of people and Rob is no slouch. Anyway you can play vibrato and still take a lot of mouthpiece in. That's what this was about, right? I'll say it again, all the guys I work for, Brecker, Rollins, Watts, everyone and I mean everyone takes gobbs of mouthpiece. It gives you more sound and that's all there is to it.

Personally I don't care what you do Pete. If you want to sound corney you can play vibrato until the cows come home. Phil Barone
 
#558 ·
Let's see....vibrato. Hmmm...John Handy--great example of a player that uses vibrato. Lovano, George Coleman, Joel Frahm, Potter, Getz, Trane, Turner...yep all use vibrato--some more, some less.

The only players I know of that don't use it or use it Very sparingly are guys from Kenton's band, and the followers of Tristano like Konitz and Marsh.
 
#560 ·
The only players I know of that don't use it or use it Very sparingly are guys from Kenton's band, and the followers of Tristano like Konitz and Marsh.
I don't know so much about their followers, but Konitz and Marsh are among my favourite players, and what absolutely great controlled use of vibrato in their tone. A great inspiration to me and many other players.

Phil, I suggest you seriously listen to some of these great players and think about whether they are corny or not before you knock those of us who think vibrato is an important part of the saxophone tonal vocabulary.
 
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