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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#427 ·
hakukani said:
Yeah, Phil. I've been practicing the exercises on my new Barone NY7M. My alto sound is getting BIG and more in tune. I'm scaring the dogs:D
Thank you. Would someone please tell me where I started this post so I can start part ll? And remember, when you all get a chance, try and buy a very open mouthpiece like on eBay for cheap, get yourself some soft reeds and use that to start your practice session with the first exercise. If you can get a baritone that would be even better. Phil
 
#431 ·
bradshawm said:
This may be a stupid question, but what is considered to be a really "open" mouthpiece for alto and tenor? Say I was going to buy a metal link from WWBW, which size do you recommend?[/QUOT

For warming up, a 10 or 10*, for playing, 7* or 8. I see you posted to the first post, did you see part II? Phil
 
#432 ·
Thanks Phil. I am not ready to move to the next step yet. I was having some problems, and upon switching to a new horn, those problems dissappeared but have not had enough time with the new horn. I don't think I am ready for part two, but hopefully will get there soon. I would like to get a more open mouthpiece and work with it for awhile first also.

Marshall
 
#433 ·
Phil Barone said:
Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb.

Phil
Maybe there's something I miss: I an do the exercise clearly from F down to D, because playing those notes without the octave key make them overtones of the low fundamental. Now how can I finger middle Bb (or B or C or C sharp) I mean left 1+ bis key, and get the otave down?? :?
Thanks for the help understanding this
 
#435 ·
Nefertiti said:
I took that as meaning you finger the low notes and go for an octave up and then slide down. So for low Bb you finger the low Bb but play the Bb an octave up which is the next overtone up and then slide down to the low note.
Thank you. English is not my language...
So it seems a basic overtone excercise, playing the first partial and than back to the fundamental from F to Bb. Ok.
 
#436 ·
Where is part II?

:(
Phil Barone said:
bradshawm said:
This may be a stupid question, but what is considered to be a really "open" mouthpiece for alto and tenor? Say I was going to buy a metal link from WWBW, which size do you recommend?[/QUOT

For warming up, a 10 or 10*, for playing, 7* or 8. I see you posted to the first post, did you see part II? Phil
Phil,

I haven't been able to locate part II?

Steve
 
#438 ·
Phil Barone said:
I agree but most players don't take that much in. However, I studied with Joe and we both agreed that you can't take too much. Phil
I take in a lot of mouthpiece on alto and baritone, but when I started playing soprano recently I had intonation and low register problems until i used less mouthpiece. You can take too much on soprano.
Martin
 
#439 ·
hey all my teacher has taught me the sliding exercises a while ago....
although he disagrees with how much mouthpiece i use....
ill try and use even more in the coming weeks

my other teacher tells me to put more in.....

anyway


i started these mouthpiece exercises and can do high A to D

i've been practicing whats on page 7 (i think)
that is

A G F# E D then back up E F# G A

what else should i try and should i eventually be aiming to get below D???
 
#441 ·
martinm5862 said:
I take in a lot of mouthpiece on alto and baritone, but when I started playing soprano recently I had intonation and low register problems until i used less mouthpiece. You can take too much on soprano.
Martin
If you have to use less mouthpiece for getting the intonation and the low register work, you'll experience problems going to the high register, specially from A2 up. My experience is that problems in the low register and intonation tend to be indicators of leaks. I take a LOT of mouthpiece on a soprano to get a full, even tone that persists throughout all registers.
 
#442 ·
I've just recently found this thread and started working on the exercises.

I've found that when I start getting down to around the D and lower I start to get a gag reflex. I don't get it if I just play the low notes, just when I try to slide from the upper octave to the lower.

Is this common? Has this happened to anyone else, and if so what did you do about it? It gets so bad that I have to put the horn down for 15min or so before it goes away.

Also just to be sure, is the key to these exercises to do this all in one air stream with no breaks in the air stream and no tounging?

Thanks.
 
#443 ·
I've just recently found this thread and started working on the exercises.

I've found that when I start getting down to around the D and lower I start to get a gag reflex. I don't get it if I just play the low notes, just when I try to slide from the upper octave to the lower.

Is this common? Has this happened to anyone else, and if so what did you do about it? It gets so bad that I have to put the horn down for 15min or so before it goes away.

Also just to be sure, is the key to these exercises to do this all in one air stream with no breaks in the air stream and no tounging?

Thanks.
This may actually be good because it means that it's working. Your throat is probably opening and that's what you want. May ease back a little.
 
#444 ·
hi phil,
Your advices about take a lot of mouthpiece work very well in the low register.
With more mouthpieces I have a full, strond, and centered sound from low F to Bb flat.
The exercice 2:1 (allard notation), is easier with for mouthpiece.
The probleme is the médium and high register, in wich I lose the controle of the reed, and it's sound bright and "squik" my reed shout.
I've difficulty to subtone in the low registre too, not enouth lips on the reeds...
Am I in the wrong way?
Thanks a lot for your help
Dam
I play with a morgan 8L + lavoz med.,
 
#445 ·
The idea of taking excess mouthpiece is so that you eventually fall back to a comfortable place. The way to break an old habit is to exaggerate the new one. Ideally you should cover the whole facing. On tenor that's an inch. The problem you're having with the high notes can probably be attributed to you not using your throat to change notes. You want to be relaxed and don't try and get the upcoming note, just think it and it will come. You might also want to consider switching reeds. With your new embouchure you may require a different reed. Phil
 
#446 ·
I anderstand what you mean, maybe I need time to fixe my new embouchure and also find more adapted reeds. Harder reeds I think, because with more mouthpiece, the reed vibrate easier.
Effectivly, I have some difficulty to change the pitch with my throat when I try to play a scale whit my mouthpiece only, without move my lips and my jaw.
I have to practice!!!
Thanks a lot phil
Dam
 
#449 ·
ok I anderstand,
This afternoon, I played with a little bit less mouthpiece in my mouth than yesterday, and the control was better, less bright, darker. But when I compare the maks under my mouthpiece, I take far more mouthpiece than last week. I think I just find a good middle.
For the reeds I've byed: rico orange #3, Alexander dc #3, and hemke #2.5, It wouldn't be too hard, but a little bit more than Lavoz med. The morgan 8L mouthpiece is so easy blowing...
I anderstand know when you say i've to stay relax, one day I had a teacher who say to me the opposite: I was playing and he try to put my mouthpiece out of my mouth, but he didn't can, and he said to me:" good, embouchure good fixed."
Now I anderstand he was wrong...
But now i know the right way, upper lips relax,
Thanks
 
#451 ·
there's an embouchure that I also use where the beak top is pushed against my top teeth (angle of horn, neckstrap, etc), though my lower EMB is loose as in this Allard method. you can't lightly pop the mpc out of my mouth with that embouchure (I also use a toothpatch) -- mostly on alto - but that's not the Allard method.

but most ppl pinch top and bottom, and don't take in enough mpc, which is the problem

I like the Allard method but i also know my other EMB is good too. but teachers do have a hard time actually figuring out if the emb is correct or not. The student really has to understand properly and that is what Phil is teaching here - these tips and techniques are great for that. I think the Allard method really teaches a good emb more easily than other methods when taught correctly.
 
#452 ·
thank you phil and stevesklar for your gold advices,
In fact what's happening with my sound is that he becomes far more stronger and dark.
I would never imagine one day I'd have this sound! It needs more blow but the sound sounds alive...
This embouchure makes me more connected to my sax, It hard to explain but I feel the blow coming from insite body and directly makes the reed vibrate, stange impression at the biginnig. But so intensive, passionned... alive sound...
I anderstand now that it is the right way to find myself.
It need a lot of practice to controle this new embouchure, but as we say in french: "Le jeu en vaut la chandelle".
Thanks
Dam
 
#454 ·
I started doing this and the other exercise - well, yesterday pretty much.

With the switching octaves, I definitely feel what it's getting at. I've started taking in a little more mouthpiece (I wasn't bad before, but more couldn't hurt), and have focused on putting very little pressure with my top teeth. It has made me open up my airstream, especially in the top register, which has resulted in a bigger tone. Still gotta work on it naturally.

It has also made it more obvious that I need to improve the way I currently play overtones. While I am comfortable with overtones and altissimo, it generally was done by combining throat manipulations, airstream modifications, and how much pressure I was putting on the reed. This has, after just 2 times through, made me conscious of exactly how I should be focusing the airstream to get those notes without having to put more pressure down.

The second exercise has made it quite clear that I need more support for the lower notes. It surprised me that I couldn't actually get the low notes from a D downwards very easily at all because they would all just struggle and generally stay up the octave. I've never had a teacher and am more or less self taught, and it's great having an exercise that makes it abundantly clear which things need to improve.
 
#455 ·
Quick question on one of the exercises:
Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm.


Is this meant to be painful? I did this using my throat and got very bad pains which stopped me playing sax for two days. It could be scarring or injury from anaphylaxis and my disease, but thought I'd ask anyway.
 
#456 ·
Quick question on one of the exercises:
Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There's no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm.

Is this meant to be painful? I did this using my throat and got very bad pains which stopped me playing sax for two days. It could be scarring or injury from anaphylaxis and my disease, but thought I'd ask anyway.
No, you should be relaxed. That's just the point. -P-
 
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