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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#402 ·
Kevin said:
moving your mpc out for the low notes is not against the basic principles of how the mpc works. It's a matter of controlling the overtones in relation to the volume of your notes. You need less mpc in your mouth to play low and very quiet. The opposite is true if you want to play low and loud. I've seen this demonstrated by players that can play low Bb's and B's so quiet that they are almost inaudible. You can't do that with lots of mpc in your mouth.
I can. No brag, just fact.:)
 
#405 ·
Well, I AM talking about super quiet...virtually inaudible, but with the same type of tone as when you play mf. I don't want to be one of "those" people, but I have never heard anyone play as quietly as I am talking about without taking less mpc (and making oral adjustments). I'd be willing to bet that our idea of "soft" isn't quite the same. No disrespect, but I don't know any of you personally and haven't heard you play...it's actually a matter of physics...you have to dampen the vibrations. Long tones and more practice will only get you so far without taking the necessary steps to reduce the strength of the upper partials sufficiently.

Now, that being said, I understand that in jazz, subtoning can be one way to get superquiet (though I have still not heard that as quietly as I am referring to), but that requires a collapsing of the oral cavity and the tone quality considerably changes. In order to not get a "subtone" sound, less mpc is needed.
 
#407 ·
Kevin said:
Well, I AM talking about super quiet...virtually inaudible, but with the same type of tone as when you play mf. I don't want to be one of "those" people, but I have never heard anyone play as quietly as I am talking about without taking less mpc (and making oral adjustments). I'd be willing to bet that our idea of "soft" isn't quite the same. No disrespect, but I don't know any of you personally and haven't heard you play...it's actually a matter of physics...you have to dampen the vibrations. Long tones and more practice will only get you so far without taking the necessary steps to reduce the strength of the upper partials sufficiently.

Now, that being said, I understand that in jazz, subtoning can be one way to get superquiet (though I have still not heard that as quietly as I am referring to), but that requires a collapsing of the oral cavity and the tone quality considerably changes. In order to not get a "subtone" sound, less mpc is needed.
I was with you until 'dampen the upper partials sufficiently'?!??. ...And I play many styles, but was classically trained. I don't change the amount of mouthpiece for any note. No need.

Also, there are several ways to subtone. Isn't one of the things of subtoning is 'dampening the upper partials'?

It is the physics of the instrument that the quieter you play, the less complex the timbre. Is it not?

I have a great recording of 'Quatour Pour la Fin du Temps'. In the solo clarinet mvt, the clarinet player plays from pppp to fffff. You can count the harmonics added as he goes from the softer to louder dynamic.

I really don't think he was changing the amount of mouthpiece to get that effect.
 
#408 ·
Yes, the quieter the the sound the less complex the timbre, and I think when you are reaching for the extreme in quietude you actually have to manipulate the timbre to get to that extreme.

I was trained (as a classical player) to not change the mpc position for any note, but I have since learned in order to achieve some of the extremes and affects I want, that changing the mpc position is sometimes required. I have also heard this from Pat Meighan, whom I consider to be one of the finest saxophonists and pedagogues in the world.

I'll consider that there are different ways to do things, but I know what my definition of "quiet" used to be and it is different than what it is now. I also know that the type of sound you get from "subtoning" in jazz is a different type of sound than you get from the normal range of playing. I do use jazz style subtoning in my classical playing, but I am referring to a different technique here. It is similar in that upper partials are dampened in the process, but the aural differences are noticeable. The extreme quietness I am talking about sounds like an extension of the normal timbre while jazz subtoning does not.
 
#411 ·
speyman said:
Yea, here is one. Looks like you don't need to do anything with the mouthpiece or with your fingers. Man this cat can play and I bet he never did any long tones or overtones.

All the notes are there anyway. Interesting engineering exercise, but horrible tone and marginal intonation. Is this an idealized example of fixed position playing?
 
#412 ·
What happened to "Part II" of this exercise series? :hello2:
 
#415 ·
This thread has been so watered down I'm discouraged from posting to it. Why pollute the message? Of course there's going to be different opinions about jaw movements in which case you should start your own thread. I posted what Joe and Vick taught me, that's all. I'm just repeating what was told me but you know when you read a thread you shouldn't take it totally seriously, scrutinizing ever word I say. So if the guys that contradict me want to put the second exercise up than be my guest since you know so much.

The next exercise would take considerable time but I'm not putting it up so I can be contradicted and the thread can be polluted by people that have insecurities and especially when we don't know their ability as players. I'm done here. Phil
 
#416 ·
Phil Barone said:
This thread has been so watered down I'm discouraged from posting to it. Why pollute the message? Of course there's going to be different opinions about jaw movements in which case you should start your own thread. I posted what Joe and Vick taught me, that's all. I'm just repeating what was told me but you know when you read a thread you shouldn't take it totally seriously, scrutinizing ever word I say. So if the guys that contradict me want to put the second exercise up than be my guest since you know so much.

The next exercise would take considerable time but I'm not putting it up so I can be contradicted and the thread can be polluted by people that have insecurities and especially when we don't know their ability as players. I'm done here. Phil
Noooo.... the majority of us were eating this up and working on it and waiting with anticipation. It was requested earlier if you have any seperate ideas or things you want to add that oppose what you were teaching to take it to another thread. Even though this is a forum and conversations are encouraged, I think given the nature of this thread and the purpose that should have been respected.

Could you possibly make another thread or even like someone said add a "lessons" to your webpage or allow someone else to host it on their site? I was very much looking forward to the next lesson ad I'm sure the mjaority of the others were as well. If you do post, then we could only ask that people would respect your and the people who are looking forward to your exercises and if they have a problem with something posted then take it to another thread. Please don't penalize the rest of us who were looking forward to the next lesson.
Whatever you decide, I'm one of many that appreciated your knowledge and information you chose to share.
 
#417 ·
Jbroad572 said:
Noooo.... the majority of us were eating this up and working on it and waiting with anticipation. It was requested earlier if you have any seperate ideas or things you want to add that oppose what you were teaching to take it to another thread. Even though this is a forum and conversations are encouraged, I think given the nature of this thread and the purpose that should have been respected.

Could you possibly make another thread or even like someone said add a "lessons" to your webpage or allow someone else to host it on their site? I was very much looking forward to the next lesson ad I'm sure the mjaority of the others were as well. If you do post, then we could only ask that people would respect your and the people who are looking forward to your exercises and if they have a problem with something posted then take it to another thread. Please don't penalize the rest of us who were looking forward to the next lesson.
Whatever you decide, I'm one of many that appreciated your knowledge and information you chose to share.
Alright, I'll prepare it but I don't want to hear from the know-it-alls. They can start their own thread. Phil
 
#418 ·
Phil, there are many of us that have been waiting for part II and are ready to proceed forward. As you know, this is an open forum so just disregard the post you don't like and move on with your method to tone production for those that are interested. Sure there will be those that don't agree but that's OK as it is their option to do so. However there are some of us that will weed our way through the post to get to what counts..Your method.
 
#419 ·
speyman said:
Phil, there are many of us that have been waiting for part II and are ready to proceed forward. As you know, this is an open forum so just disregard the post you don't like and move on with your method to tone production for those that are interested. Sure there will be those that don't agree but that's OK as it is their option to do so. However there are some of us that will weed our way through the post to get to what counts..Your method.
Okay, I'll start a different thread and call it part ll. What bothers me is that that I can't think of anyone who has thrown themselves into sound than me then you get some guys that post ridiculous things like the post that said that you should take more mouthpiece for the high notes and less for the low notes. That's the opposite of what I've been taught, what the best sounding players do, and what I know works best with regard to what I know about the way a mouthpiece works. There are people on her that will listen to that. If anything, the jaw should remain fixed like the clip someone put up here of Mike Brecker playing and you should take lots of mouthpiece in. Look at pictures of Trane, Brecker, Sonny etc. Naturally, you have to do what works best. So here's something I can throw out until I get part ll done. Buy a real open mouthpiece and put a soft reed on it and do the first exercise. That will get you putting lots of air in the horn. Phil
 
#420 ·
Phil Barone said:
Okay, I'll start a different thread and call it part ll. What bothers me is that that I can't think of anyone who has thrown themselves into sound than me then you get some guys that post ridiculous things like the post that said that you should take more mouthpiece for the high notes and less for the low notes. That's the opposite of what I've been taught, what the best sounding players do, and what I know works best with regard to what I know about the way a mouthpiece works. There are people on her that will listen to that. If anything, the jaw should remain fixed like the clip someone put up here of Mike Brecker playing and you should take lots of mouthpiece in. Look at pictures of Trane, Brecker, Sonny etc. Naturally, you have to do what works best. So here's something I can throw out until I get part ll done. Buy a real open mouthpiece and put a soft reed on it and do the first exercise. That will get you putting lots of air in the horn. Phil
Hey Phil, it takes all kinds to make the world go around. Please keep the GOOD STUFF coming!!

By the way, your Jazz 7* metal mouthpiece is playing great. I haven't ever played a piece that is so flexible with the sound. It seems that you can get just about any type of sound from dark to bright. I plays great from soft to loud and with great response.
 
#421 ·
speyman said:
Hey Phil, it takes all kinds to make the world go around. Please keep the GOOD STUFF coming!!

By the way, your Jazz 7* metal mouthpiece is playing great. I haven't ever played a piece that is so flexible with the sound. It seems that you can get just about any type of sound from dark to bright. I plays great from soft to loud and with great response.
I know there's all kinds, I just wish they wouldn't post their opinions that contradict mine when I'm trying to teach something that is desperately needed. the jazz model is a burner, my favorite. I've stopped making metal pieces at the moment until I finish the people that are waiting. Phil
 
#422 ·
I too wish that people would respect your trying to help others with their tone production and give you room in this post to do your thing like you asked. Maybe all the readers of this post should ignore the contradictions to your information and let it stand on its own merit. Keep the info. coming Phil, I'm sure there are many out there that are looking forward to your next post on this subject.
 
#423 ·
speyman said:
I too wish that people would respect your trying to help others with their tone production and give you room in this post to do your thing like you asked. Maybe all the readers of this post should ignore the contradictions to your information and let it stand on its own merit. Keep the info. coming Phil, I'm sure there are many out there that are looking forward to your next post on this subject.
The same thing happens with mouthpiece posts too. I've been making mouthpieces a long time and some newbie doing it for a couple of years will contest me. A lot of this goes on here, that's why so many valuable posters stop reading SOTW. Harri does try to keep it a class act though. Phil
 
#426 ·
Yeah, Phil. I've been practicing the exercises on my new Barone NY7M. My alto sound is getting BIG and more in tune. I'm scaring the dogs:D
 
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