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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#378 ·
Phil Barone said:
Yes, just try and use the support although you may automatically use your embouchure too. However, if you're taking enough mouthpiece it won't have much effect. The sound will become more refined unless you have a mouthpiece that's naturally unrefined and you've been compensating all this time. This is possible. Phil
Ok, so I think I've figured out what the point is of taking in lots of mouthpiece:

By taking your embouchure off of the vibrating part of the reed, you're (almost) taking your embouchure out of the picture and using the throat and lungs to control the tone and, to a certain extent, intonation. By doing so, the reed is vibrating to its "full potential," so to speak. I've noticed that when I bite hard or keep my embouchure looser when I have lots of mouthpiece in, it makes a fraction of the difference that it would make closer to the tip.

Am I thinking about this right? I think these excercises would make more sense to me if I could understand conceptually why they work and what they do. Not that I don't feel like they're helping. A lot of what I've said above has come from my observations using these in the practice room.
 
#380 ·
CountSpatula said:
Seems that way...no more cheating by biting to get higher notes/altissimo huh? :)
Ahhh, the tootsie pop theory.

Everybody bites for that higher note once in a while!
 
#381 ·
How much mouthpiece - Allard

I studied with Joe Allard 30 years ago. He was very explicit that the amount of mouthpiece varies according to the note. Lower notes = less mouthpiece and more jaw pressure , higher=more mouthpiece and less jaw pressure. The position of the top teeth on the mouthpice slides subtly in and out as you ascend or descend. This was also part of the overtone drops Phil mentions.
When he first told me about this it was contrary and seemed conterintuitive to other information I had been given as a beginner. Such as drop the jaw and say "AAHH" on low notes.
Two other important factors are air compression and tongue position. Joe would say it's not quite "ee", but the french syllable "eu".
Anyway, an arch in the tongue focuses the air. Have air compression behind it ready for full volume even if you are playing pp. Even though he told me that you can't be any more aware of your diaphram than your toenails, he did advocate a way of breathing and compressing air that I believe is actually bringing it (diaphram) very much into play. The best opera singers do the same thing for compression. Another little trick he mentioned that the opera singers also know about is using a relaxed or lowered larynx position . Make yourself yawn and check out the position. Try playing with it like that.

He helped me tremendously with embrouchure and tone production. It can take many years to develop the relaxation and subtle em
brouchure he taught, but his exercises will do it if you keep at it and listen carefully. He didn't practice anymore when I studied with him but he'd take my horn with not warmup and with all keys closed and whisper out high Aflat, Bflat and C ( 4th c up ) down to low Bflat to demonstrate the mouthpiece slide. His embrochure looked very relaxed, and he did take more mouthpiece for the higher notes, and subtly slide it out as the harmonics dropped.
Hope this helps someone.
 
#382 ·
Unfortunitely, as sax players, we over-think everything. Ralph Bowen says that the embouchure is only for stoping air leaks and that the mouth actually stops sound. Andy Snitzer says to forget the embouchure, blow and cover the mouthpiece with your mouth. His theory is to drop the adam's apple. If we took a hose, which had air, and attached it to the mouthpiece the sound would be great and constant. Nothing would prohibit the sound. I guess that is the goal. I go with the corners of my mouth. I make dimples on my sides and try not to apply any pressure from my lower and upper lip. Sound mostly comes from the diaphragm. I open my throat by forming an "o" so that my tongue is out of the way of the sound. Then i sip my coffee, take a drag of my smoke and just play. Ya know, all the great players i hang with; i notice one thing in common: I ask how the embouchure is formed, how they do this and that and they all say, ahhh just play. So many people say drop the jaw, then dont drop the jaw, etc etc. I guess its whatever works for you.
 
#383 ·
Pgraves said:
He was very explicit that the amount of mouthpiece varies according to the note. Lower notes = less mouthpiece and more jaw pressure , higher=more mouthpiece and less jaw pressure.
This is just the opposite to what I find works for me (although I don't necessarily have to move in or out on the mpc). Also, on a video of, I believe, Yusef Lateef, he noticeably took in more mpc when he played a low note. I'm not saying one way or the other is right or wrong, just that there is obviously more than one approach, and in some cases opposite approaches may be equally valid.
 
#385 ·
Pgraves said:
I studied with Joe Allard 30 years ago. He was very explicit that the amount of mouthpiece varies according to the note. Lower notes = less mouthpiece and more jaw pressure , higher=more mouthpiece and less jaw pressure. The position of the top teeth on the mouthpice slides subtly in and out as you ascend or descend. This was also part of the overtone drops Phil mentions.
When he first told me about this it was contrary and seemed conterintuitive to other information I had been given as a beginner. Such as drop the jaw and say "AAHH" on low notes.
Two other important factors are air compression and tongue position. Joe would say it's not quite "ee", but the french syllable "eu".
Anyway, an arch in the tongue focuses the air. Have air compression behind it ready for full volume even if you are playing pp. Even though he told me that you can't be any more aware of your diaphram than your toenails, he did advocate a way of breathing and compressing air that I believe is actually bringing it (diaphram) very much into play. The best opera singers do the same thing for compression. Another little trick he mentioned that the opera singers also know about is using a relaxed or lowered larynx position . Make yourself yawn and check out the position. Try playing with it like that.

He helped me tremendously with embrouchure and tone production. It can take many years to develop the relaxation and subtle em
brouchure he taught, but his exercises will do it if you keep at it and listen carefully. He didn't practice anymore when I studied with him but he'd take my horn with not warmup and with all keys closed and whisper out high Aflat, Bflat and C ( 4th c up ) down to low Bflat to demonstrate the mouthpiece slide. His embrochure looked very relaxed, and he did take more mouthpiece for the higher notes, and subtly slide it out as the harmonics dropped.
Hope this helps someone.
Joe told me that everything remained fixed but I think you move naturally but one thing is for sure, if anything I think you should take more mouthpiece with lower notes. You're never out on the tip, that would go against the basic principles of how the mouthpiece works. Phil
 
#386 ·
I'm confused now.......bear in mind I've decided to forget about this stuff because I decided that my production worked fine, but..........
It seems counter-intuitive to play the lower notes with more mouthpiece. The student of Allard's I worked with explained it as needing to think of the high's residing in the thicker part of the reed and low's in the thinner part. The clarinet can prove this really well. Put hardly any mouthpiece in your mouth and play low E- easy right? Now try and play a super high C on the same place on the mouthpiece- not so easy. The opposite happens when you put much more mouthpiece in your mouth and when you go too far all you can get is a squeak.
The same works on the saxophone except that it has more inherent problems with the lower end due to the bore, but the principal is the same. The can be used for colour change too- more mouthpiece down low will add considerable highs and grunt to the sound, less and mouthpiece will result in a sub-tone with virtually no upper harmonic activity.
I've also realised by now that no 2 people got the same 'version of events' from Allard- its was catered specifically to the individual.
 
#387 ·
............that said, I have practised the exercises Phil has talked about for hours and hours in the past (and still for maintenance)- coupling the octave drops with moving on the reed- and they are the absolute bomb for sound production. The embouchure is simply like a plastic connector for joining 2 garden hoses- the saxophone is one hose and the other (and most important!!) is inside you.
 
#388 ·
Benny said:
Put hardly any mouthpiece in your mouth and play low E- easy right? Now try and play a super high C on the same place on the mouthpiece- not so easy. The opposite happens when you put much more mouthpiece in your mouth and when you go too far all you can get is a squeak.
You may be right Benny, but this just doesn't jive with my own experience. It strikes me that the reed needs freedom to vibrate regardless of the note being played, and it really needs that freedom for the low notes. All I know is if I take in more mpc, the low end speaks much more easily, and the altissimo becomes somewhat more difficult.
 
#389 ·
Benny said:
I'm confused now.......bear in mind I've decided to forget about this stuff because I decided that my production worked fine, but..........
It seems counter-intuitive to play the lower notes with more mouthpiece. The student of Allard's I worked with explained it as needing to think of the high's residing in the thicker part of the reed and low's in the thinner part. The clarinet can prove this really well. Put hardly any mouthpiece in your mouth and play low E- easy right? Now try and play a super high C on the same place on the mouthpiece- not so easy. The opposite happens when you put much more mouthpiece in your mouth and when you go too far all you can get is a squeak.
The same works on the saxophone except that it has more inherent problems with the lower end due to the bore, but the principal is the same. The can be used for colour change too- more mouthpiece down low will add considerable highs and grunt to the sound, less and mouthpiece will result in a sub-tone with virtually no upper harmonic activity.
I've also realised by now that no 2 people got the same 'version of events' from Allard- its was catered specifically to the individual.
With due respect to your teacher, and perhaps to Mr. Allard, that's just not how the mouthpiece-reed system works.

Instead of me trying to stumble through an explanation, may I suggest going to the library and finding a book on acoustic principals.
 
#390 ·
I've been working on my embouchure and trying different things for a little less than a year or so now, and after the advice in this thread, I finally got to the point yesterday where I could put my top teeth past the bite plate and actually get a nice and controllable sound. As it turned out, I just had to make sure to really tighten up the corners of my mouth correctly as I was doing so, which is another something I've been working on, but it clicked this time. The sound was really big and dark and loud, which is what I've been aiming for, and now that I've done it, I will try and always do it that way. I've had my throat position in a comfortable place for a while now (the EU sound is a good description), so I think this was all I needed. Anyway, just wanted to say, this has been an awesome thread.
 
#391 ·
Phil Barone said:
Bending is kind of dated but just move further back when you want to bend. You will have less control at first but it will come around. Just don't give into temptation to taking less mouthpiece. Phil
Thanks Phil....I'll keep experimenting with it...

Just out of curiosity...

What do you mean "bending is kind of dated"?

Do you mean the term? - or do modern players not bend notes so much anymore?

I've been playing sax for 30 years....<sigh> that makes ME a little "dated"...:(
 
#393 ·
You decide

Less or more? More mouthpiece=more harmonics. Less mouthpiece does not mean reducing mouthpiece to a point where you are choking off the sound or the sound color. The mouthpiece shift is a subtle move, or not, if you are trying to create some sort of special color effect. But certainly don't choke the sound by using too little. Not too little, not too much = just right. You decide where that is. When you are doing the harmonic drops something has to change otherwise you don't get the drop. If not a subtle change on the mouthpiece then what? Also, if you do use more mouthpiece on the low end, because it does make it easier to get a low note out, adding a jaw drop causes the pitch to go flat, and a blaring or honking type of sound. Unless that's what you want. What factors can you control beyond equipment selection - breath support, reed control through pressure and placement of the pressure on the mouthpiece and the shape of the mouth cavity and throat. Lots of factors. Re: "ahhh just play". How about the old chestnuts : "Practice makes permanent" or "Perfect practice make perfect". Spend some time developing some physical positions that become good habits that you never have to think about. Then you can "ahhh just play". Technique (craft) + inspiration (ideas) = art. Drop out one or the other and you'll have poorly executed brilliant ideas or boring technical excellence. 90% perspiration + 10% inspiration? You can make yourself have brilliant ideas, but you can make yourself have good technique. Certainly can't hurt, and it's gives you something to do when you're not overflowing with inspiration and brilliancies.
Sometimes something that's correct may not seem so at first. Joe did point out that some of his ideas seemed counter intuitive at first. But, he's got a pretty impressive lineup of former students who would say he helped.
Interesting idea that Joe gave out different versions to people. I have a copy of videotaped lesson someone made in Joe's later years, and he's saying all the same stuff he told me. So I don't think this was something he told only me.
No doubt you can play the bottom register more easily with more mouthpiece. It all depends on how you want to color the sound. Joe's stuff was geared to giving you the control to color the sound however you hear it. The way I understand it is that embrouchure flexibility and oral cavity shaping are the prime components. Joe demonstrates this in the lesson. Joe said "you wouldn't paint with only one color would you? It's boring."
But - what did he know.
 
#394 ·
You decide

Less or more ? More mouthpiece=more harmonics. "Less" mouthpiece does not mean reducing mouthpiece to a point where you are choking off the sound or the sound color. The mouthpiece shift is a subtle move - or not if you are trying to create some sort of special color effect. But certainly don't choke the sound by using too little. Not too little, not too much = just right. You decide where that is. When you are doing the harmonic drops something has to change otherwise you don't get the drop. If not a subtle change on the mouthpiece then what? Also, if you do use more mouthpiece on the low end, because it does make it easier to get a low note out, adding a jaw drop causes the pitch to go flat, and a blaring or honking type of sound. Unless that's what you want. What factors can you control beyond equipment selection - breath support, reed control through pressure and placement of the pressure on the mouthpiece and the shape of the oral cavity and throat. Lots of factors. Re: "ahhh just play". How about the old chestnuts : "Practice makes permanent" or "Perfect practice make perfect". Spend some time developing some physical positions that become good habits that you never have to think about. Then you can "ahhh just play". Technique (craft) + inspiration (ideas) = art. Drop either side out and you have poorly executed brilliant ideas or boring technical excellence. 90% perspiration + 10% inspiration? You can make yourself have brilliant ideas, but you can make yourself have good technique. Certainly can't hurt, and it's gives you something to do when you're not overflowing with inspiration and brilliancies.
Sometimes something that's correct may not seem so at first. Joe did point out that some of his ideas seemed counter intuitive at first. But, he's got a pretty impressive lineup of former students who would say he helped.
Interesting idea that Joe gave out different versions to people. I have a copy of videotaped lesson someone made in Joe's later years, and he's saying all the same stuff he told me. So I don't think this was something he told only me.
No doubt you can play the bottom register more easily with more mouthpiece. It all depends on how you want to color the sound. Joe's stuff was geared to giving you the control to color the sound however you hear it. The way I understand it is that embrouchure flexibility and throat and oral cavity shaping are the prime components. Joe demonstrates this in the lesson. Joe said "you wouldn't paint with only one color would you? It's boring."
But - what did he know.
 
#395 ·
Phil Barone said:
Joe told me that everything remained fixed but I think you move naturally but one thing is for sure, if anything I think you should take more mouthpiece with lower notes. You're never out on the tip, that would go against the basic principles of how the mouthpiece works. Phil
I just got back from a performance by the Dave Holland Quintet with Chris Potter. Potter was pretty noticeably (to a sax player) moving his jaw out for high notes and in for low notes.
 
#396 ·
dirty said:
I just got back from a performance by the Dave Holland Quintet with Chris Potter. Potter was pretty noticeably (to a sax player) moving his jaw out for high notes and in for low notes.
Man, you shoulda been watching (and listening) to the bass player, instead of watching Potter's jaw.:cool:
 
#397 ·
hakukani said:
Man, you shoulda been watching (and listening) to the bass player, instead of watching Potter's jaw.:cool:
Hey man, don't you worry about me. Dave Holland was astounding. He comps like nobody else! He can move across an upright bass faster than most electric bassists.

I didn't spend the whole time watching Chris Potter's jaw, but if you've ever seen CP live, you'll know that his facial muscles in action are truly a sight to behold!
 
#398 ·
Whew, I'm relieved.

I've heard Dave Holland with Liebs and Richie Bierach.
Great collective improvising.
 
#399 ·
Jaw movement - another method of adjusting the amount of lip coverage on the reed. Allard said to move the mouthpiece allowing the lip to roll a little with it. He explicitly talked to me about jaw movement to accomplish the same thing. Jaw movement is similar, but he didn't favor it. Personally I do some of both, and don't really think about it very consciously. But that's probably where habits engrained from practice come in. Allard told me that Sonny Rollins was a guy who did lots of things "wrong" but sounded great, and he loved his playing anyway. I guess the idea is to develop a way to play so that you get to the most freedom to choose how you want to color your sound, in all registers.
 
#401 ·
moving your mpc out for the low notes is not against the basic principles of how the mpc works. It's a matter of controlling the overtones in relation to the volume of your notes. You need less mpc in your mouth to play low and very quiet. The opposite is true if you want to play low and loud. I've seen this demonstrated by players that can play low Bb's and B's so quiet that they are almost inaudible. You can't do that with lots of mpc in your mouth.
 
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