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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#302 ·
I'm not a Buddist or a Tibetan Buddist, but I studied harmonic singing with a guy named David Hykes, who learned it in Tibet.

I found that finding the harmonies in the formants of the throat/nasal passages helped me to focus on the breath and sound. It had the side effect of improving my control on sax, somewhat similarly, I think, to the exercises advocated in this thread.

The advantage is that harmonic singing can be done while driving or when you can't be practicing sax. It also is very relaxing, and helps in winding down as I'm driving home from work.

BTW, I've been following this thread and trying out the exercises. Thanks Phil. Excellent stuff
 
#303 ·
The practice of Zen or Tibetan Buddhism will do wonders for a musician or any artist, for that matter, in terms of helping focus the mind and free you from the bonds of the ego which is constantly in the way. Yeah, Phil, I guess Buddhism could be described as a "spiritual" practice but it is very far removed from what "religion" or "spiritual practice" means in the west, or the middle east. Anyway, in my own case, I've practiced zen meditation and always found "truth" in zen, which cuts right to the bone and deals with reality, not superstition.

I guess we all have to find our own way, though.
 
#304 ·
hakukani said:
BTW, I've been following this thread and trying out the exercises. Thanks Phil. Excellent stuff
Me too. I guess I'm lucky though. My first sax teacher Wendell Hobbs showed me these very same exercises almost right from the beginning. I have not worked on them in some time. I think I know where Phil is going.

When is next shoe gonna drop? :)
 
#305 ·
Wow, what a thread. I have tried to read through all of it, and have been working on it. I have to admit that it is slow going. My sound really opens up, but after about three weeks, I am still having problems with both D on the staff and G right above the staff wanting to drop down an octave. It is that way on all my saxes (tenor, alto and soprano) so I know it is still me. At the same time I am seeing great improvements in other things. I have a couple questions:

1. I have heard it several times that you can't take in enough mouthpiece, however, there is a distinct line on my mouthpiece, that if I cross it, the octave key is worthless as everything only plays in the lower octave, and the exercises are impossible. Is that telling me that is where I belong on the Mouthpiece, or should I be able to overcome that?

2. I keep hearing about the importance of playing a mouthpiece based on a link. I play a morgan 6L on alto and Tenor and am not sure if they are link like. I know they have a larger chamber than the 6M which is based on a meyer but they do have a rollover baffle. Questions: Should all this work with any mouthpiece, even higher baffle pieces? Does it work better with a link based piece, or is it just that you all believe a link based piece is the optimal type piece for getting the most out of the sax?

Thanks!

Marshall
 
#306 · (Edited)
hakukani said:
I'm not a Buddist or a Tibetan Buddist, but I studied harmonic singing with a guy named David Hykes, who learned it in Tibet.
I have a CD from about 15 years ago by the Harmonic Choir called "Hearing Solar Winds". It is quite amazing, and needs to be sat and listened to, not just on in the background as musical wallpaper. At a family dinner we put this on after the eating was done, and for 50 minutes not a word was said, as everyone sat there in the candlelight and had their own experiences. Whenever I have a music night at home or at a friend's we inevitably get into this style singing as the evening winds down. Non-musicians in particular seem fascinated by the tonal variations and harmonics the voice can create.

Samples of the above CD can be found at Amazon.com

Mark
 
#308 ·
Saxland said:
David Hykes and The Harmonic Choir:

That's David. He's come a long way in 20 years. Wow! Thanks.
I studied with him after 'Hearing Solar Winds' at a workshop at the Banff Centre for the Fine Arts in winter '86-87.

I sing on our lanai (porch) when we have guests, when it feels right. I have a Tibetan bowl that I picked out that is the same pitch as my throat/nasal passages. I'm not as proficient or focussed as David, but the Idea is there.
 
#309 ·
"Hearing Solar Winds?" Someone should tell the band that there is no sound in space because vacuum doesn't transport sound waves. :D

(If not, it would be pretty uncomfortable here on Earth due to the solar activity -- you could hear a constant and VERY LOUD deep rumble all the time)
 
#310 ·
Giganova said:
"Hearing Solar Winds?" Someone should tell the band that there is no sound in space because vacuum doesn't transport sound waves. :D

(If not, it would be pretty uncomfortable here on Earth due to the solar activity -- you could hear a constant and VERY LOUD deep rumble all the time)
I hear that! Doesn't everyone? Phil
 
#313 ·
DaveR said:
I In fact much of the overtone practice/scales on the mouthpiece excresices are, or certainly were, regarded with great suspicion as being 'typical anal American BS' by many Europeans. Now don't get upset, please, I am reporting the facts, not representing a viewpoint.(
Yeah, well wait until you do the next exercise. In two weeks it will change everything you thought you knew about how to put air through the horn.

DaveR said:
To be honest there isn't a professor in the UK that I know who seriously uses these techniques on a regular basis, they'd be laughed out of town.:(
And the UK is really knockin out a lot of great players, right? Are they willing to argue with Brecker, Liebman, and 100's of the incredible players that studied with Joe. I studied the Teal thing too and I sounded like I had a sock in my horn. Phil
 
#315 ·
Swampcabbage said:
Okay so we got the overtone octave slide. The scales on the moutpiece and the breathing to feel the pubic bone. Are we ready yet? Can we be done wth the teasers?
I'm not getting the feeling that the majority of us wants to move on yet. I did the first exercises for a few months before going back to Joe. All right, so let's take a vote. Phil
 
#316 ·
JL said:
The practice of Zen or Tibetan Buddhism will do wonders for a musician or any artist, for that matter, in terms of helping focus the mind and free you from the bonds of the ego which is constantly in the way. Yeah, Phil, I guess Buddhism could be described as a "spiritual" practice but it is very far removed from what "religion" or "spiritual practice" means in the west, or the middle east. Anyway, in my own case, I've practiced zen meditation and always found "truth" in zen, which cuts right to the bone and deals with reality, not superstition.

I guess we all have to find our own way, though.
To be honest, it didn't help my music much but what it did do was help me realize what's important, music is not. What meditating has done for me is cause me a slight pause between an event and my reaction. Really, what have we got? We have this body that decays and decays rather quickly. Now, although I have to make a living, the most important thing to me is my spiritual life. Really, nothing else matters because you lose everything, even your family. In the big picture all you can take with you is your spiritual practice and all you can hope for is to progress to a human body so you can continue your practice but even that's very slim. Phil
 
#318 ·
Hey Phil,
I think when you do give us the next part you might be better off starting a new thread IE "tone production 2" as i think with the many distrations and off topic disscusion that has occoured some people may have stopped reading this one.

By the way i am in no rush im still working on what you have given us.

Boy iam i glad i saw this thread when it first started i would hate to have to wade through all the replies now (thinking out loud)
 
#320 ·
Phil Barone said:
Okay, this isn't the next exercise but it's a tidbit. Lay down on your back and feel just above the pubic bone. Try to take breaths and feel the pubic bone move. Don't be frustrated, everything should be done slowly and MINDFULLY. And remember, attempting to do them is your goal, not the actual doing of them although that would be better. It's the path, not the destination.

What happens in 3weeks 4 days?

TIC Aussie humour :D :D :D :twisted:
 
#322 ·
Swampcabbage said:
Your point is well taken. I would vote to bring it on. But, I can hang out for a bit.
agreed, it's in your court, Phil>:|
 
#323 ·
Take 2:

Wow, what a thread. I have tried to read through all of it, and have been working on it. I have to admit that it is slow going. My sound really opens up, but after about three weeks, I am still having problems with both D on the staff and G right above the staff wanting to drop down an octave. It is that way on all my saxes (tenor, alto and soprano) so I know it is still me. At the same time I am seeing great improvements in other things. I have a couple questions:

1. I have heard it several times that you can't take in enough mouthpiece, however, there is a distinct line on my mouthpiece, that if I cross it, the octave key is worthless as everything only plays in the lower octave, and the exercises are impossible. Is that telling me that is where I belong on the Mouthpiece, or should I be able to overcome that?

2. I keep hearing about the importance of playing a mouthpiece based on a link. I play a morgan 6L on alto and Tenor and am not sure if they are link like. I know they have a larger chamber than the 6M which is based on a meyer but they do have a rollover baffle. Questions: Should all this work with any mouthpiece, even higher baffle pieces? Does it work better with a link based piece, or is it just that you all believe a link based piece is the optimal type piece for getting the most out of the sax?

Thanks!

Marshall
 
#324 ·
the book, ZEN GUITAR by Philip Toshio Sudo, illustrates connections between music and meditations. I searched SOTW and was surprised not to find a reference to it.

from p. 92, chapter titled, Loss of Focus
Gary Bartz to Miles Davis, " I remember coming to a concert where they had a big catetered meal set out for everyone...I said, "Miles, man you gotta see all the food they got here" And Miles said, "I didn't come here to eat."

This book was given to me by a guitar player who reminded me to listen when I play.
 
#325 ·
bradshawm said:
Take 2:

1. I have heard it several times that you can't take in enough mouthpiece, however, there is a distinct line on my mouthpiece, that if I cross it, the octave key is worthless as everything only plays in the lower octave, and the exercises are impossible. Is that telling me that is where I belong on the Mouthpiece, or should I be able to overcome that?

Marshall
It should be the other way around, keep trying. Phil
 
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