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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#278 ·
Phil this really is a great exercise. And I already starting playing the low note strong after sliding down to it. For some reason it just felt right to do that. So it's interesting that you added that.

Anyway, I'm ready for the next bit. Thanks!
 
#279 ·
Fell Boyzs said:
I was watching the Legends of Jazz DVD with my students this week (we're on a jazz unit) and I'm watching the Woods/Sanborn clip and noticing how much mthpc Woods takes and how little Sanborn takes. Both exceptional sounding players, but for me, I like Woods sound alot better then Sanborns and I have been a Sanborn fan for 20 years. Could it be the set-up? Sure. Could it be the more mthpc concept? Sure. Could it be the mic/eq settings? Sure. The Horn? The the the...whatever. It could be a number of things...sh**, it could be the alignment of the stars/planets, for all we know.

I just liked the roundness and the fullness of Woods' sound. And he sure had that mthpc shoved it.

Just my observation for today.

-Zach
Okay, I'll get jumped on. Sanborn uses a totally unorthedox concept and while I think he believes that he has to do it this way it would be much better if he didn't. It's common knowledge that he is always looking for mouthpieces and seems to be in mouthpiece hell. I like his sound for what it is but it could be MUCH better in that he would be able to cross over to a more traditional sound with a different mouthpiece and approach. He'd be a much happier camper if he actually did the opposite of what he's doing. I tend to doubt he's going to change though. Phil
 
#281 ·
trinitron said:
Phil,

I'm ready when everyone else is..i can't wait. these first exercises have definitely made me more aware of my body. outstanding.
Okay, this isn't the next exercise but it's a tidbit. Lay down on your back and feel just above the pubic bone. Try to take breaths and feel the pubic bone move. Don't be frustrated, everything should be done slowly and MINDFULLY. And remember, attempting to do them is your goal, not the actual doing of them although that would be better. It's the path, not the destination.

I want to add something very important. I only saw Joe once every few months. He'd give you the exercise and you'd do it until you thought you were ready to go back; or he gave you several. You can get too obsessed with these just like anything else and it's the end to a means, not the means itself. I don't think anything will do more for your sound than transcribing the solos of the cats you love. I'll say this one more time, a good 75% of your tone comes from PHRASING in the manner you want to sound like tonal speaking. How do you think Brecker got that super funky sound on 4* Links? Mouthpieces are important and you can dial in your sound and get more volume with a good mouthpiece but it's more of a comfort factor than a contributor to sound. The problem with many of todays mouthpieces isn't that they're bad, it's that they're not good. Do you understand the difference?

If I had to say, a mouthpiece that's comfortable is more important than one that you think may sound better because if you're comfortable you'll get the sound you want and (this is important) if you're comfortable and you don't have to struggle your ideas will me more effortless and that's what it's all about. Yet, it shouldn't be too easy either because then the mouthpiece becomes too big a contributor to the sound and the mouthpiece ends up playing you instead of the other way around. Why do you think so many players sound the same these days. Two notes and I know it's Sonny, two notes and I know it's Bird, two notes and I know it's Trane, etc. I can't say that of todays players. High baffle pieces don't require you to use your diaphram as much as Link like pieces. Want instant sound? Get a Guardala or any other one of the instant sound pieces that are around. Just remember, it will always sound the same and won't grow with you but it's a fast food society and everyone wants the easy way out. I have tremendous hope that Europe will lead the jazz world in a few years.

I'll tell you straight out, my mouthpieces sound great because they're very comfortable more than anything. Also, in all honesty, there's nothing but a bunch of garbage around so it's not very hard to beat out. In reality, I'm probably a very average mouthpiece maker. I'll add something else that may blow some minds. I think lines are much more important than sound. Allard said "sound is everything", what a bunch of bull. I can go out seven nights a week and hear guys with great sounds playing Trane lines but I can't go anywhere and hear someone playing new ideas. Naturally it has to be an acceptable tone but if the guy is playing great lines the chances are that his tone is good too. Miles said that he got his ideas from his tone but you get your tone from your ideas too. These exercises are just a catalyst to finding your sound, a catalyst. If you're playing incorrectly you can't express yourself or you may think that by playing a certain way is the way to your sound but you could be wrong and play incorrectly for years. These exercises are designed to help you get out of your own way.

The only guys I'd go out of my way to hear now are all the former Lennie Tristano students but they're so busy staying home and practicing they don't gig much. You may have to go a few times but on that one time it's really on it's like a darn masterpiece. Too bad Lee Konitz changed so much. If you guys are lucky, if you hear that this guy Jimmy Halperin is playing in your area go see him no matter what you have to do. Mostly he plays in Iceland and places like that. He plays like Warne Marsh on steroids. Definitely try to get his recordings. He may be the best living tenor player.

Phil
 
#282 ·
Phil Barone said:
Okay, everything should be done slowly and MINDFULLY. It's the path, not the destination.

I want to add something very important. You can get too obsessed with these just like anything else and it's the end to a means, not the means itself. I don't think anything will do more.. I'll say this one more time, a good 75% of your tone comes from PHRASING in the manner you want to sound like tonal speaking. .......with a good mouthpiece but it's more of a comfort factor than a contributor to sound. Do you understand the difference?

If I had to say, a mouthpiece that's comfortable is more important than one that you think may sound better because if you're comfortable you'll get the sound you want and (this is important) if you're comfortable and you don't have to struggle your ideas will me more effortless and that's what it's all about. Yet, it shouldn't be too easy either because then the mouthpiece becomes too big a contributor to the sound and the mouthpiece ends up playing you instead of the other way around. Why do you think so many players sound the same these days. Two notes and I know it's Sonny, two notes and I know it's Bird, two notes and I know it's Trane, etc. I can't say that of todays players. High baffle pieces don't require you to use your diaphram as much as Link like pieces. Want instant sound? Get a Guardala or any other one of the instant sound pieces that are around. Just remember, it will always sound the same and won't grow with you but it's a fast food society and everyone wants the easy way out. I have tremendous hope that Europe will lead the jazz world in a few years.

I'll add something else that may blow some minds. I think lines are much more important than sound. Allard said "sound is everything", what a bunch of bull. I can go out seven nights a week and hear guys with great sounds playing Trane lines but I can't go anywhere and hear someone playing new ideas. Naturally it has to be an acceptable tone but if the guy is playing great lines the chances are that his tone is good too. Miles said that he got his ideas from his tone but you get your tone from your ideas too. These exercises are just a catalyst to finding your sound, a catalyst. If you're playing incorrectly you can't express yourself or you may think that by playing a certain way is the way to your sound but you could be wrong and play incorrectly for years. These exercises are designed to help you get out of your own way.

The only guys I'd go out of my way to hear now are all the former Lennie Tristano students but they're so busy staying home and practicing they don't gig much. You may have to go a few times but on that one time it's really on it's like a darn masterpiece. Too bad Lee Konitz changed so much. If you guys are lucky, if you hear that this guy Jimmy Halperin is playing in your area go see him no matter what you have to do. Mostly he plays in Iceland and places like that. He plays like Warne Marsh on steroids. Definitely try to get his recordings. He may be the best living tenor player.

Phil
Phil,
I've picked the sections of your post that I know are the most important.
What I see is most players believe that practicing and studying ,ad nuseum,
long tones, scales , modes and all that stuff including your excercise(which really should be instinctual after a short time with a horn) is the magic carpet to becoming a competent and presentable player with something to contribute to the art. The fact is what you said here is really the key to becoming a working player worthy of folk's interest," your tone comes from PHRASING in the manner you want to sound like tonal speaking[/B]."
I don't play long tones for a living-nor do I ever conciously pin a scale or mode or any of those school taught, excercises proferred by teachers to justify their existance detrium, to any soloing over changes that I do, for a living. I play tunes for a living.These things are like algebra--no bearing to the real world. If one wants to play and sound good-well then learn and play tunes, or better yet create your own. Too many players spend to much time intellectualizing. Transcribing other people's solos is creatively stiffiling as is spending a whole lot of time listening to other players for something other than the pleasure of it.
If a player is dissatisfied with their tone or the creative content of what they're producing the best thing I would recommend is spend the decades it takes for the brain, body and soul to accept that what they're doing at the time is what they're supposed to be doing then and to accept that the progress to another level will come in its time through experience. Musicians are born....not made. Some will just never get it regardless of how much they want it or how much effort they put into it. Excercises and teachers will be of little use to them and unnecessary for those who are able.

re: mouthpieces....I'm the guy who said-"get a Link and learn how to play it." I do have one of your Jazz tenor pieces-it's alright-it's good. When my Link melts I'd use it. I also have one of your Hollywood soprano pieces...Very nice piece, feels good-sounds good...highly recommend.

All that blah blah blah being said, above by me-aside. Phil you deserve kudos and respect for your caring, sharing and concern towards the community and the art.
Thank you for that
 
#283 ·
Thomas said:
Phil,
I've picked the sections of your post that I know are the most important.
What I see is most players believe that practicing and studying ,ad nuseum,
long tones, scales , modes and all that stuff including your excercise(which really should be instinctual after a short time with a horn) is the magic carpet to becoming a competent and presentable player with something to contribute to the art. The fact is what you said here is really the key to becoming a working player worthy of folk's interest," your tone comes from PHRASING in the manner you want to sound like tonal speaking[/B]."
I don't play long tones for a living-nor do I ever conciously pin a scale or mode or any of those school taught, excercises proferred by teachers to justify their existance detrium, to any soloing over changes that I do, for a living. I play tunes for a living.These things are like algebra--no bearing to the real world. If one wants to play and sound good-well then learn and play tunes, or better yet create your own. Too many players spend to much time intellectualizing. Transcribing other people's solos is creatively stiffiling as is spending a whole lot of time listening to other players for something other than the pleasure of it.
If a player is dissatisfied with their tone or the creative content of what they're producing the best thing I would recommend is spend the decades it takes for the brain, body and soul to accept that what they're doing at the time is what they're supposed to be doing then and to accept that the progress to another level will come in its time through experience. Musicians are born....not made. Some will just never get it regardless of how much they want it or how much effort they put into it. Excercises and teachers will be of little use to them and unnecessary for those who are able.

re: mouthpieces....I'm the guy who said-"get a Link and learn how to play it." I do have one of your Jazz tenor pieces-it's alright-it's good. When my Link melts I'd use it. I also have one of your Hollywood soprano pieces...Very nice piece, feels good-sounds good...highly recommend.

All that blah blah blah being said, above by me-aside. Phil you deserve kudos and respect for your caring, sharing and concern towards the community and the art.
Thank you for that
I agree with everything you say. However I might be misunderstood when I talked about transcribing. I agree that it can become creatively stifling but it should be a gateway as is everything you do. Once an exercise or what have you is relatively understood then you should move on. Long tones are worthless if done incorrectly. Sal Mosca, who I hold in the same regard as Bird only let his students transcribe so many solos then you were on your own.

However, I strongly believe that what your endeavor whether it be saxophone or something else it should be fun. Much of my writing and suggestions are for very strong willed individuals with very high aspirations and come from a person who is extremely tenacious. I do not expect my audience to be like me and unless you have a natural type A personality like mine, many of my suggestions will end in failure which in turn may end up in quitting. I am a true purist as was my teacher Sal but the largest mistake Sal made was expecting me to have the same goals as he did/does. I got to the point when I quit because I couldn't play on Lennie Tristano's level when in retrospect I would have been happy playing bari on R & B tunes. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to continue to make the saxophone fun for once it's no longer fun, that's is the beginning of the end. Phil

P.S. What period Jazz model do you own? The reason why I ask is because the recent ones blow away the old ones. They're like Links but easier to play and louder.
 
#284 ·
Transcription is definitely key. It's also important that even if we imitate an artists it still sound like ourselves trying to play like that artist. There is nothing inherently wrong with that for me.

Another add (and side plug) is that one thing I've noticed about my Barone NY 7* is how flexible it is and the wide variety of different sound I can get based on all the factors of breath, embouchure, position, etc. It's not an "automatic" sound.
 
#285 ·
Swampcabbage said:
Another add (and side plug) is that one thing I've noticed about my Barone NY 7* is how flexible it is and the wide variety of different sound I can get based on all the factors of breath, embouchure, position, etc. It's not an "automatic" sound.
Thanks but there'd be no Phil Barone without Link. I just added a bit. Phil
 
#287 · (Edited)
Phil Barone said:
If I had to say, a mouthpiece that's comfortable is more important than one that you think may sound better because if you're comfortable you'll get the sound you want and (this is important) if you're comfortable and you don't have to struggle your ideas will me more effortless and that's what it's all about.
Phil (and this is an honest question, not a challenge :) ) if this is the case, why then do you make seven different tenor mouthpieces? Wouldn't one mouthpiece type that is made right take care of all those different sounds which you describe on your web site when you describe the characteristics of your various mouthpieces? Or taking it one step further, why wouldn't Steve Grossman, Charles Lloyd, (the late) Stanley Turrentine, and others all play, for example, a Hollywood rather than other various models you offer? Thanks.
 
#288 ·
gary said:
Phil (and this is an honest question, not a challenge :) ) if this is the case, why then do you make seven different tenor mouthpieces? Wouldn't one mouthpiece type that is made right take care of all those different sounds which you describe on your web site when you describe the characteristics of your various mouthpieces? Or taking it one step further, why wouldn't Steve Grossman, Charles Lloyd, (the late) Stanley Turrentine, and others all play, for example, a Hollywood rather than other various models you offer? Thanks.
There's reality and then there's the business. Yet, at the same time you have different models within different classes of mouthpieces. The Hollywood, NY, and Jazz are all in one class and have varying degrees of brightness. Then there's the rest, again, all to varying degrees. Am I making sense? Phil
 
#289 ·
Phil Barone said:
Am I making sense? Phil
Thanks Phil. I guess what I'm after is that, if one only needs a mouthpiece that plays easily, why would these various players be seeking different things in mouthpieces. Why wouldn't a Steve Grossman settle for a Hollywood instead of having a mpc made especially for him, for example? Thanks.

BTW, I'm not asking these questions frivolously; I think some of what I'm asking has a general interest for the readers, and for me specifically, I've been interested in your mouthpieces for years, but at the prices (and in most cases returning a mpc is not possible) I guess I just want to know the fine points before I would purchase one. I appreciate your taking the time, not only here at this moment, but (even if I rib you occasionally ;)) for all the thought-provoking posts you often make.
 
#291 ·
gary said:
Thanks Phil. I guess what I'm after is that, if one only needs a mouthpiece that plays easily, why would these various players be seeking different things in mouthpieces. Why wouldn't a Steve Grossman settle for a Hollywood instead of having a mpc made expecially for him, for example? Thanks.
I think I said that a mouthpiece that plays too easily is not good although I'm getting a little confused now. The piece has to play with enough resistance so to allow the player to be able to create their own sound and if it plays too easily that it won't sound that different from player to player and that the mouthpiece playes the player as opposed to the player playing the mouthpiece. BUT, if it's too hard, that's not good either.

I can't speak for Steve but as for many players there just isn't enough availability of mouthpieces that allow for players to sound like themselves and if everyone is having a frenzy like what is going on now, it's because they may have lost faith in finding something suitable. There's a lot of factors, I've had players call me a God and a year later come back looking for something else. I think it's human nature to want more or maybe something just different. Many times it's a question of volume.

I had a super fast motorcycle yet I changed the motor entirely only to find out that it scared the heck out of me. Okay, I can't give all this justice so do this and I promise it will make you a happier person. Read "The Four Noble Truths" by Buddha transcribed by the Dahli Lama or Robert Thurman. It explains why we're unhappy and how to overcome it. One of the truths is that we spend our time seeking happiness outside of ourselves, i.e. mouthpieces, motorcycles etc. Also, (especially for all you would be mouthpiece techs and mouthpiece addicts) read Animated Earth. I forget who wrote it but it's a must read for all musicians. Phil
 
#292 ·
Bernards20040 said:
gary
The most prolific SOTW poster
Posts: 8,000
Taaaa Daaaaaaa
OMG! OMG!! I'm so ashamed!

 
#295 ·
Thanks, Phil. I would like to send you an email about your mouthpieces. I might send an audio file, so it might take a day or two (I'm low-tech).

BTW:

Phil Barone said:
Read "The Four Noble Truths" by Buddha transcribed by the Dahli Lama or Robert Thurman. It explains why we're unhappy and how to overcome it. Also, read Animated Earth. I forget who wrote it
I was raised in Japan and Hawaii and am a Buddhist. The Four Noble Truths (and more) have been a part of my life as long as I can remember. Here's a Zen statement I think you might get a kick out of if you haven't heard it:
"If you meet the Buddha on the road - kill him!" :D

Regarding the "Animated Earth" if it's the same one I'm thinking about the author is Daniel Statnekov.
 
#296 · (Edited)
Parable
"The abbot of a once famous Buddhist monastery that had fallen into decline was deeply troubled. Monks were lax in their practice; novices were leaving and lay supporters deserting to other centers. He traveled far to a sage and recounted his tale of woe of how much he desired to transform his monastery to the flourishing haven it had been in days of yore. The sage looked him in the eye and said,
"The reason your monastery has languished is that the Buddha is living among you in disguise, and you have not honored Him."
The abbot hurried back, his mind in turmoil. The Selfless One was at his monastery! Who could He be? Brother Hua?...No, he was full of sloth. Brother Po?...No, he was too dull. But then the Tathagata was in disguise. What better disguise than sloth or dull- wittedness? He called his monks to him and revealed the sage's words. They, too, were taken aback and looked at each other with suspicion and awe. Which one of them was the Chosen One? The disguise was perfect. Not knowing who He was they took to treating everyone with the respect due to a Buddha. Their faces started shining with an inner radiance that attracted novices and then lay supporters. In no time at all, the monastery far surpassed its previous glory."

http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/parable.shtml

"You have the opportunity to change the world by simply
treating everyone as if they are the Buddha in disguise.
The truth is, everyone IS the Buddha is disguise.
But that is a secret, so don't let the cat out of the bag."
Wei Wu Wei

A parable from a very wise old ****.
 
#297 ·
"True words are not always pretty. Pretty words are not always true."

Lao Tse

"Master the art of clever rhetoric and you will have a long and distinguished career in politics, the self help industry and/or evangelism."

Tony Robbins. :) (Just Kiddin' Tony, I'm feeling a little edgy today.Must be all that late night TV.)

"Learn to talk *** like a rhodes scholar and the world's your oyster."

Dog Pants
 
#298 ·
gary said:
Thanks, Phil. I would like to send you an email about your mouthpieces. I might send an audio file, so it might take a day or two (I'm low-tech).

BTW:

I was raised in Japan and Hawaii and am a Buddhist. The Four Noble Truths (and more) have been a part of my life as long as I can remember. Here's a Zen statement I think you might get a kick out of if you haven't heard it:
"If you meet the Buddha on the road - kill him!" :D

Regarding the "Animated Earth" if it's the same one I'm thinking about the author is Daniel Statnekov.
Wow, what sect did/do you practice? For a while I was in SGI, they're the ones that chant Nam myo ho renge kyo and there's 10 million practicioners in that sect in Japan and they're huge in the US. It'e very stimulating to chant that. I turned Mike Brecker onto it and he started practicing a year or so before he died but now I'm practicing Tibetan Buddhism. For me, given my personality I have to live a spirtual life or I'm just a miserable bastard.

You're right on the authors name, I found it to be a great book. I'm also going on a retreat in August with Thich Nat Hahn for a week. I try to follow Geshe Michael Roach and I also try to stay involved with Tibet House and I hope to help them build a hospice where people can go to die in the proper Buddhist manner. Theo Wanne is also a Buddhist in the Tibetan tradition but he's light years ahead of me.

I'd like to add something about being a better player. Sal, my former teacher had students go into psycotherapy and I strongly believe that great strides can be made in your playing and you life by engaging in practices outside of practicing and studying music. Phil
 
#300 ·
I have had the wonderful experience of seeing two of these made.

Besides the amazing beauty, the concept of 3 or 4 monks taking a couple months out of their lives to create one of these, and then sweeping it up and throwing it in a lake is a wonderful lesson.
 
#301 ·
saintsday said:
I have had the wonderful experience of seeing two of these made.

Besides the amazing beauty, the concept of 3 or 4 monks taking a couple months out of their lives to create one of these, and then sweeping it up and throwing it in a lake is a wonderful lesson.
The reason they wreck is because it represents the impermanence of everything, life especially. There's this wonderful story. This guy kept going to his monk/teacher with questions on how he could make his marriage work and the monk kept telling him that he's not a marriage counselor. Finally one day the monk said "listen, you're both going to die very soon so be good to each other".

Let's not for to march for Tibet http://www.march10.org/join.htm#us There's marches all over the world. Phil
 
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