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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#131 ·
Al Stevens said:
Gary, it's not a gliss or a smear as we understand them. It's just two notes an octave apart with as little space as possible between them and with no noise between them.
Groan. This is pretty much what I do as part of my normal practice routine. Sorry I asked, LOL. Onward and forward, and thanks to you all for clearing it up for me.
 
#132 ·
I can do it pretty well BUT only if I allow a very slight relaxation of embouchure. It is a subtle one, NOT a gross drop of the jaw but I can feel it is there. The embouchure change wants to come along for the ride with opening the throat more and if I resist doing it then the note won't drop octaves. Is this "wrong" and am I missing the point?

Obviously things could be made much clearer in private lessons.
 
#133 ·
Al Stevens said:
I'm a relative novice to sax, too (just over three years), and I've read a lot about it and talked to many players.

There are two schools of thought among experienced players about the jaw. Some say the jaw must never change position; others say they drop their jaws to ensure that they sound the lower notes with precision. Both camps are equally convinced theirs is the one true way and that the other camp is all wet. Both camps comprise respected players. The main division I've observed with exceptions, of course, is that classical players say don't move your jaw, whereas jazz, big band and show band players say do what's necessary. Many classical players eschew subtone playing, so that might explain the differing opinions.

Phil says don't drop the jaw for this exercise, so that's how I'm trying to do it.
Rest assured that there is also everything in between, those who move their jaw so slightly that you can't see it, those who move it so violently that you can all the time, yet still have great control, etc. A general trend or observation is that those with more stationary jaws often have greater control and intonation abilities reflected by this. There are noted exceptions but I tend to go with a fixed jaw method most of the time.
 
#135 ·
It's based on my experience with all of my professors and fellow students, and other sax players on gigs I have done over the course of the past three years. Nobody you'd know, in all likelihood; listing the names would be pointless. I should clarify that it is a "personal observation" and have already stated that there are of course exceptions... but the general trend is that fixed jaw = more control.
 
#136 ·
fred12 said:
What a fascinating (and helpful) discussion! Opens doors I never knew existed, thanks everybody (especially Phil). But - now to expose myself as a real novice - how to avoid dropping the jaw? I really have to do it to get the bottom notes to speak, whether alto, tenor or Baritone. (Maybe I'm working with too many horns for a 2 year beginner but different situations seem to require it). Sorry for the dumb question but the jaw drop seems to be a necessity. Am I doing something wrong?
You have to hear the low note in your head. Focus your mind on keeping your jaw steady, and think low. I can't control my throat completely yet, so this is how I have to do it.
 
#138 ·
Speaking of the amount of mouthpiece to take in, I was recently watching the Pink Floyd PULSE concert DVD, with original 'Dark Side of the Moon' saxist Dick Parry on the tour. A close-up showed his lips to be very close to the Rovner lig! Seeing that reminded me of this thread, and I had to back up and have another look. Yes, he took in a lot more than I would have imagined.

Mark
 
#139 ·
alsdiego said:
Or, if you're like me, think "high" to get the middle F to sound without the octave key! :D
another way to begin to feel this is to play low F and on down to low B flat WITH the octave key pushed down.

this is something i do if i have to warm up quickly.

another important point is to not articulate any of these notes especially the
overtone. start it with you breath. articulating is cheating cause it sets the reed moving.

also now its time to forget about practicing overtones with fingerings above low C#. for instance if you want to play an overtone F use low B flat fingering not low F fingering.

the point is to always use the full length of the horn as the fundamental reference point.

also begin to combine longtone exersises with these overtone exercises.
play for instance a low C start it with you breath and creschendo to as lowd as you can and then back to as soft as you can again. use your imagination and vioce to keep the note in pitch wthout changing as the volume changes.

now do the same exercise as above but start on the overtone and when you are at the lowdest point drop to the fundamental.

next play low C and start of as loud as possible and decrscendo to as soft as possible then back to full loud without letting pitch change.

next do the same as above only start on the overtone and when you are at the softest point change to the fundamental and get loud again.

do this for low C# down to low B flat.
 
#140 ·
Another begin way to to feel this is to play low F and on up to low B flat WITH the octave key pushed up.

Another important point is to not especially articulate any of these the
notes overtone. start it with you breath. Cheating articulating is cause the reed moving.

Now its time to forget about practicing. Fingering overtones with above low Db. for instance if you want to play an overtone A use high Bb fingering not low F fingering. IMHO IYKWIM BOZO.
 
#141 ·
I hope I'm not called names for hijacking, but yeah one teacher suggested I play 5-4-3-2-1 descending scale patterns at the bottom of the horn. It's ok to start higher, say A-D but then descend chromatically so you end on the F-Bb. Play it big and full like it is an important solo. If the Bb comes out cleanly you must be playing the sax correctly.
 
#142 ·
garyjones said:
another way to begin to feel this is to play low F and on down to low B flat WITH the octave key pushed down.

this is something i do if i have to warm up quickly.

another important point is to not articulate any of these notes especially the
overtone. start it with you breath. articulating is cheating cause it sets the reed moving.

also now its time to forget about practicing overtones with fingerings above low C#. for instance if you want to play an overtone F use low B flat fingering not low F fingering.

the point is to always use the full length of the horn as the fundamental reference point.

also begin to combine longtone exersises with these overtone exercises.
play for instance a low C start it with you breath and creschendo to as lowd as you can and then back to as soft as you can again. use your imagination and vioce to keep the note in pitch wthout changing as the volume changes.

now do the same exercise as above but start on the overtone and when you are at the lowdest point drop to the fundamental.

next play low C and start of as loud as possible and decrscendo to as soft as possible then back to full loud without letting pitch change.

next do the same as above only start on the overtone and when you are at the softest point change to the fundamental and get loud again.

do this for low C# down to low B flat.
How about if we stick to what Phil suggests first. I'm not sure what he has in mind, but do what he says and let's see. I'm not suggesting that your ideas aren't good, but I have to say that if you could spell and used correct punctuation, I might at least have read your post properly!
 
#144 ·
Al Stevens said:
I'm a relative novice to sax, too (just over three years), and I've read a lot about it and talked to many players.

There are two schools of thought among experienced players about the jaw. Some say the jaw must never change position; others say they drop their jaws to ensure that they sound the lower notes with precision. Both camps are equally convinced theirs is the one true way and that the other camp is all wet. Both camps comprise respected players. The main division I've observed with exceptions, of course, is that classical players say don't move your jaw, whereas jazz, big band and show band players say do what's necessary. Many classical players eschew subtone playing, so that might explain the differing opinions.

Phil says don't drop the jaw for this exercise, so that's how I'm trying to do it.
these are exercised designed to teach the player to make a clear sound without deadening the reed. lowering the jaw uses the lower lip to deaded the reed. these ecercises are also designed to alow the player to develope a full tone by using the voice and throat properly. moving the jaw clamps the throat and kills the whole thing. as a matter of fact tension in any muscle in the body kills the saxophone sound and also kills the connection between the players imagination and the music.
what we are actually doing here is begining to make the organic connection between the players musical imagination and sound creation.
this is just one small step in the direction of simply imagining music and out of you saxophones it just happens without any cognitive imput at all. the idea it to make saxophone playing totally autonomic. you imagine a musical sound or musical phrase and out of your horn it just happens.
ultimately as your musical imagination becomes more and more developed and connected to your emotions and core inner being what happents is you saxophone becomes an automatic expression of your own inner soul.
to the extent that your soul is connected to the universe at large your saxophone should become an autmatic expression of the granduer of the universe and your own awe and wonder at the beauty of creation itself.
a small act of musical creation as a reflection of the universe and its beauty.

important to realise though that there are no absolutes in the world.
later on after you learn to play and especially if you are a jazz player you can do all kinds of crazy crap with your jaw to make all kinds of sounds.
it just shouldnt be a part of your long tone and overtone exercises or you are cheating and totally wasting your own time and not fostering the being saxophone link.
 
#145 · (Edited)
Mike F said:
although I have to say that if you could spell and used correct punctuation, I might at least have read your post properly!
sigh ........

edit: the exercises i posted above are exactly as they were taught to me instead of the simplified version taught by phil here.
I have no stake in it whatsoever. I am glad phil has you guys doing what amounts to a simplified version of the first days exercises.
I was just trying to convey information and nothing more. For anyone interested these exercises of course go on and on continuing with all the other higher partials in the overtone series. I said to not do F etc in this particular group of exercises because in terms of muscle memory F is a partial of B flat and should be felt and experienced as such. It is of course OK to play with overtones of any note and fingering just not a good idea to have it be a part of the core exercises. Again i have absolutely no stake in this whatsoever but was just trying to be nice and hip people to the real deal. as to the speling crap you should go find some one who cares to tell about that. spelling and grammar are for idiots who have nothing usefull to say.
 
#146 ·
speyman said:
Another begin way to to feel this is to play low F and on up to low B flat WITH the octave key pushed up.

Another important point is to not especially articulate any of these the
notes overtone. start it with you breath. Cheating articulating is cause the reed moving.

Now its time to forget about practicing. Fingering overtones with above low Db. for instance if you want to play an overtone A use high Bb fingering not low F fingering. IMHO IYKWIM BOZO.
yea we wouldnt want to actually learn to pay the saxophone here would we. people really amaze me sometimes.
i wount post anymore here i promise.
i'l just let you idiots continue on your merry way sounding awfull.
smell ya later.
 
#147 ·
From a bar?

Razzy said:
Speyman, did you send that from a bar? I didn't know bars had wireless...
No but I'm having a few beers while watching NASCAR Daytona qualifying on my TV.

It looks like I may have been confused a little in my previous post but I'm sure everyone can figure it out.

Actually, I play every day from C#3 to Bb1 without the octave key. Perhaps everyone should just do what Phil has suggested because it's good stuff and I'm sure he has more to come.
 
#149 ·
garyjones said:
yea we wouldnt want to actually learn to pay the saxophone here would we. people really amaze me sometimes.
i wount post anymore here i promise.
i'l just let you idiots continue on your merry way sounding awfull.
smell ya later.
YAGE!

:walk:
 
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