Tone Production

[MM]

I hope I'm not called names for hijacking, but yeah one teacher suggested I play 5-4-3-2-1 descending scale patterns at the bottom of the horn. It's ok to start higher, say A-D but then descend chromatically so you end on the F-Bb. Play it big and full like it is an important solo. If the Bb comes out cleanly you must be playing the sax correctly.

[Mike F]

another way to begin to feel this is to play low F and on down to low B flat WITH the octave key pushed down.

this is something i do if i have to warm up quickly.

another important point is to not articulate any of these notes especially the
overtone. start it with you breath. articulating is cheating cause it sets the reed moving.

also now its time to forget about practicing overtones with fingerings above low C#. for instance if you want to play an overtone F use low B flat fingering not low F fingering.

the point is to always use the full length of the horn as the fundamental reference point.

also begin to combine longtone exersises with these overtone exercises.
play for instance a low C start it with you breath and creschendo to as lowd as you can and then back to as soft as you can again. use your imagination and vioce to keep the note in pitch wthout changing as the volume changes.

now do the same exercise as above but start on the overtone and when you are at the lowdest point drop to the fundamental.

next play low C and start of as loud as possible and decrscendo to as soft as possible then back to full loud without letting pitch change.

next do the same as above only start on the overtone and when you are at the softest point change to the fundamental and get loud again.

do this for low C# down to low B flat.

How about if we stick to what Phil suggests first. I'm not sure what he has in mind, but do what he says and let's see. I'm not suggesting that your ideas aren't good, but I have to say that if you could spell and used correct punctuation, I might at least have read your post properly!

[Razzy]

Speyman, did you send that from a bar? I didn't know bars had wireless...

[garyjones]

I'm a relative novice to sax, too (just over three years), and I've read a lot about it and talked to many players.

There are two schools of thought among experienced players about the jaw. Some say the jaw must never change position; others say they drop their jaws to ensure that they sound the lower notes with precision. Both camps are equally convinced theirs is the one true way and that the other camp is all wet. Both camps comprise respected players. The main division I've observed with exceptions, of course, is that classical players say don't move your jaw, whereas jazz, big band and show band players say do what's necessary. Many classical players eschew subtone playing, so that might explain the differing opinions.

Phil says don't drop the jaw for this exercise, so that's how I'm trying to do it.

these are exercised designed to teach the player to make a clear sound without deadening the reed. lowering the jaw uses the lower lip to deaded the reed. these ecercises are also designed to alow the player to develope a full tone by using the voice and throat properly. moving the jaw clamps the throat and kills the whole thing. as a matter of fact tension in any muscle in the body kills the saxophone sound and also kills the connection between the players imagination and the music.
what we are actually doing here is begining to make the organic connection between the players musical imagination and sound creation.
this is just one small step in the direction of simply imagining music and out of you saxophones it just happens without any cognitive imput at all. the idea it to make saxophone playing totally autonomic. you imagine a musical sound or musical phrase and out of your horn it just happens.
ultimately as your musical imagination becomes more and more developed and connected to your emotions and core inner being what happents is you saxophone becomes an automatic expression of your own inner soul.
to the extent that your soul is connected to the universe at large your saxophone should become an autmatic expression of the granduer of the universe and your own awe and wonder at the beauty of creation itself.
a small act of musical creation as a reflection of the universe and its beauty.

important to realise though that there are no absolutes in the world.
later on after you learn to play and especially if you are a jazz player you can do all kinds of crazy crap with your jaw to make all kinds of sounds.
it just shouldnt be a part of your long tone and overtone exercises or you are cheating and totally wasting your own time and not fostering the being saxophone link.

[garyjones]

although I have to say that if you could spell and used correct punctuation, I might at least have read your post properly!

sigh ........

edit: the exercises i posted above are exactly as they were taught to me instead of the simplified version taught by phil here.
I have no stake in it whatsoever. I am glad phil has you guys doing what amounts to a simplified version of the first days exercises.
I was just trying to convey information and nothing more. For anyone interested these exercises of course go on and on continuing with all the other higher partials in the overtone series. I said to not do F etc in this particular group of exercises because in terms of muscle memory F is a partial of B flat and should be felt and experienced as such. It is of course OK to play with overtones of any note and fingering just not a good idea to have it be a part of the core exercises. Again i have absolutely no stake in this whatsoever but was just trying to be nice and hip people to the real deal. as to the speling crap you should go find some one who cares to tell about that. spelling and grammar are for idiots who have nothing usefull to say.

[garyjones]

Another begin way to to feel this is to play low F and on up to low B flat WITH the octave key pushed up.

Another important point is to not especially articulate any of these the
notes overtone. start it with you breath. Cheating articulating is cause the reed moving.

Now its time to forget about practicing. Fingering overtones with above low Db. for instance if you want to play an overtone A use high Bb fingering not low F fingering. IMHO IYKWIM BOZO.

yea we wouldnt want to actually learn to pay the saxophone here would we. people really amaze me sometimes.
i wount post anymore here i promise.
i'l just let you idiots continue on your merry way sounding awfull.
smell ya later.

[speyman]

Speyman, did you send that from a bar? I didn't know bars had wireless...

No but I'm having a few beers while watching NASCAR Daytona qualifying on my TV.

It looks like I may have been confused a little in my previous post but I'm sure everyone can figure it out.

Actually, I play every day from C#3 to Bb1 without the octave key. Perhaps everyone should just do what Phil has suggested because it's good stuff and I'm sure he has more to come.

[speyman]

yea we wouldnt want to actually learn to pay the saxophone here would we. people really amaze me sometimes.
i wount post anymore here i promise.
i'l just let you idiots continue on your merry way sounding awfull.
smell ya later.

I'm OK. You're OK.

[Razzy]

yea we wouldnt want to actually learn to pay the saxophone here would we. people really amaze me sometimes.
i wount post anymore here i promise.
i'l just let you idiots continue on your merry way sounding awfull.
smell ya later.

YAGE!

[speyman]

YAGE!

What to heck does YAGE mean?

[speyman]

That picture in my AVATAR is of a really cool chick I met the other night about 2AM. They all look great at that time of the day.

[Razzy]

Yet Another Grand Exit. Online forums are very prone to them.

[saintsday]

Speyman, did you send that from a bar? I didn't know bars had wireless...

Unfortunately, some do.

[Rackety Sax]

yea we wouldnt want to actually learn to pay the saxophone here would we. people really amaze me sometimes.
i wount post anymore here i promise.
i'l just let you idiots continue on your merry way sounding awfull.
smell ya later.

Hey Gary, don't take the comment personally. This is kind of a funny thread. On the one hand Phil clearly wanted to keep it simple and straightforward, and on the other hand his ideas are provocative enough that it's generating a lot of discussion.

Phil, it's your thread, but here's a suggestion for what it is worth. Maybe split this into two threads, one where you spell out your step-by-step exercises as you are ready and ask people not to add to it and another where people can chime in with questions, comments, random musings, bashing, breakfast, and what have you.

[sanchophone]

I have posted a couple of clips of me playing the exercise after two days of practice.

In one of them I play longer notes. The execution is evidently not clean and sometimes the intonation is all over the place, but I hope your comments on these clips will help to assess whether me and others are doing the exercise right.

I made sure that my jaw was not moving and I did feel that the change between octaves happened exactlly when I opened my throat. I had never been so aware of my throat opening and this probably why this exersice is so valuable.

Also, I put as much mouthpiece in my mouth as possible. Much more than usual. So the control of the lower notes was a bit difficult. Curiously the most difficult note was the EB overtone not the B or Bb.

Any critrizism on any aspect of my playing and sound is very welcome.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...?bandID=661573

[Razzy]

Phil, it's your thread, but here's a suggestion for what it is worth. Maybe split this into two threads, one where you spell out your step-by-step exercises as you are ready and ask people not to add to it and another where people can chime in with questions, comments, random musings, bashing, breakfast, and what have you.

That's not a plausible suggestion. There's no real reason to keep the topic so focused on one thing. Anybody who wants the exercises can open page one and read them. People who are looking to have an actual discussion can read the rest of the thread and reply accordingly. SotW is known for its stream of consciousness thread development, let it happen and the world is a better place, like an ADD kid on ridalin!!

Sanchophone, you need to work on hitting the first overtone cleanly. Your octave switch is fine but the actual overtone is not a clear sound yet. Some of them you don't even hit at all in the clip, it's like an alternation between the fundamental and the overtone.

[Tim Price]

EURO;
http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/prod...oducts_id=7864

USA;http://upbeat.com/lieb/purchase.htm

The crystalization of this can go many ways, IMHO.
I think the Lieb DVD is a huge assist for people.There also is a great ROBERTO DVD coming out soon....from Liebs RECENT clinic in NYC. Very insightful yet very to the point.I mean- after all these years- his mind never stopped. Very inspiring! Check, ROBERTOS site at Robertos Winds for more info soon- probally in a few weeks. ( Stuff also w/ Lovano and Konitz but more on that later via Robertos Winds )


For longevity's sake, BUY THE DVD. Ya know its something all of us use daily.

From Saxophone Journal
Devloping a Personal Saxophone Sound

by David Liebman
It seems to me, as a former student of Joseph Allard, that every saxophonist should have studied with this master teacher. This book, by one of Allard's most well-known students, the jazz saxophonist David Liebman, provides an opportunity to better understand Allard's ideas. Although Liebman is best known in the jazz world, it is important to bear in mind that this is not a jazz book. It will be equally useful to all saxophonists.

This book is unusual in that it concentrates almost solely on aspects of tone production, going into detail not found in the majority of saxophone performance texts. The material is organized into nine chapters: Overview of the Playing Mechamism; Breathing; The Larynx; The Overtone Exercises; The Tongue: Position and Articulation; The Embouchure; Reeds and Mouthpieces; Expressive Devices; and Practicing.

In each chapter, there are clear diagrams which show the human anatomy as it responds to various playing situations, or charts which show Allard's Overtone Exercises exactly as he notates them for his students. Reed care and alteration is discussed, with specific remedies given for various tone and response problems. Inspiring advice is given about practicing and the value of establishment of a regular routine, including a sample practice schedule.

One of the most attractive qualitites of this book is its conversational tone; it is informal, yet the material is always well organized. In some of the most fascinating passages, Liebman relates the details of how such jazz greats as John Coltrane and Dexter Gordon achieved their sounds. Intermediate/advanced students, this book enables each individual player to build and maintain a strong sound, serving as a guide to solving the unique problems that come about as a result of individual physical makeup. This book would be an important and valuable addition to any teacher's library..




BTW- For the Grossman-Lieb fans- I'm sure _MOST_know of this book but...some might not.

Complete Transcription of David Liebman and Steve Grossman Solos from Live at the Lighthouse - Elvin Jones Quartet - 1972

A MUST , imho.


Elvin Jones' classic "Live at the Lighthouse" recordings have provided a generation of jazz musicians (myself definitely included) with tremendous inspiration and material for study. Liebman and Grossman raised the bar for what could be accomplished on the saxophone after assimilating the musical language of John Coltrane, and Elvin Jones was at the absolute peak of his powers. The joy these four musicians must have shared playing together still jumps out of the speakers at you, and it remains a shining example of jazz at its most vital.

Chris Potter


But- back on track with Joe Allard....some might not know of this;
http://www.joeallard.org/

Some very nice ideas and_further insights.

The concepts of guys like Joe, Vic Morosco and others such as Viola inspire me; I hope they help everyone too.

I sure miss Joe, and he WAS the real deal. What a BASS CLARINET sound too.


If you can find it- "The Master Speaks", is helpful within all this as well.
In any case, ENJOY. HTH

[gary]

There's no real reason to keep the topic so focused on one thing.

Evidently. Why would we want to do that?

Look. I've posted off-topic comments on plenty of threads so I don't want to be waxing hypocritical here. But this thread to me illustrates the worst in how folks can hijack threads. Frankly, a lot of the comments are pretty informative, but why not in another thread that someone starts up?

Phil made a simple suggestion and I think he wanted to keep this very clean and uncomplicated. I made a joke about it, but I think it really almost is Zen in its seeming simplicity and yet that simplicity has been obscured, if not somewhat mauled. There seems to be no consideration for Phil, or for beginners and inexperienced intermediates who will be overwhelmed with information extraneous to Phil's exercise.

Phil himself asked several times for people to please stop obscuring his suggestion. The way Phil has been ignored just seems very disingenuous. Is it that hard to show a little self-restraint and honour the man's unheeded requests?

[Razzy]

Is it that hard to show a little self-restraint and honour the man's unheeded requests?

Yes, given his history here, and the angry way in which he has been known to respond to rational thinking and reason.

Beginners can and should be presented with many different viewpoints on any given topic. Not everyone can have their way in terms of controlling the discussion of a public forum, especially when their attitude towards other players is so often maladjusted and uninformed. "What the hell would you want to play classical saxophone for?" and other rude comments have gone equally unheeded by players who really should be sticking up for their genre. Phil didn't need others to hijack this thread; he did it himself and in doing so invited more hijackers. If he had approached it a little differently and been a little less hardheaded in his responses things would've gone a lot more smoothly.

Here's a suggestion that is a) actually possible and b) would solve the problems seen here: have these exercises posted as an article in the beginners section or tone development section of the actual site, rather than on the forum where information can and will be attacked and skewed.

[garyjones]

Phil made a simple suggestion and I think he wanted to keep this very clean and uncomplicated. I made a joke about it, but I think it really almost is Zen in its seeming simplicity and yet that simplicity has been obscured, if not somewhat mauled. There seems to be no consideration for Phil, or for beginners and inexperienced intermediates who will be overwhelmed with information extraneous to Phil's exercise.

Phil himself asked several times for people to please stop obscuring his suggestion. The way Phil has been ignored just seems very disingenuous. Is it that hard to show a little self-restraint and honour the man's unheeded requests?

i do opologize if my input has been disruptive. I assumed people would be interested in the exercises in thier original form and context. generally something this simple from such a great master as joe allard would not be considered something that would be good to make up a "new" more simpler version. The import and function of these exercises is of unimaginal value when left alone as origianlly created. if someone wishes to learn joe allards way of playing and practicing then they can and should find an authentic teacher and stop reading bogus web forums i guess after all. I was however conveying information that is valuable and rather hard to come by.