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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#154 ·
garyjones said:
yea we wouldnt want to actually learn to pay the saxophone here would we. people really amaze me sometimes.
i wount post anymore here i promise.
i'l just let you idiots continue on your merry way sounding awfull.
smell ya later.
Hey Gary, don't take the comment personally. This is kind of a funny thread. On the one hand Phil clearly wanted to keep it simple and straightforward, and on the other hand his ideas are provocative enough that it's generating a lot of discussion.

Phil, it's your thread, but here's a suggestion for what it is worth. Maybe split this into two threads, one where you spell out your step-by-step exercises as you are ready and ask people not to add to it and another where people can chime in with questions, comments, random musings, bashing, breakfast, and what have you.
 
#155 · (Edited)
I have posted a couple of clips of me playing the exercise after two days of practice.

In one of them I play longer notes. The execution is evidently not clean and sometimes the intonation is all over the place, but I hope your comments on these clips will help to assess whether me and others are doing the exercise right.

I made sure that my jaw was not moving and I did feel that the change between octaves happened exactlly when I opened my throat. I had never been so aware of my throat opening and this probably why this exersice is so valuable.

Also, I put as much mouthpiece in my mouth as possible. Much more than usual. So the control of the lower notes was a bit difficult. Curiously the most difficult note was the EB overtone not the B or Bb.

Any critrizism on any aspect of my playing and sound is very welcome.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=661573
 
#156 ·
chitownjazz said:
Phil, it's your thread, but here's a suggestion for what it is worth. Maybe split this into two threads, one where you spell out your step-by-step exercises as you are ready and ask people not to add to it and another where people can chime in with questions, comments, random musings, bashing, breakfast, and what have you.
That's not a plausible suggestion. There's no real reason to keep the topic so focused on one thing. Anybody who wants the exercises can open page one and read them. People who are looking to have an actual discussion can read the rest of the thread and reply accordingly. SotW is known for its stream of consciousness thread development, let it happen and the world is a better place, like an ADD kid on ridalin!!

Sanchophone, you need to work on hitting the first overtone cleanly. Your octave switch is fine but the actual overtone is not a clear sound yet. Some of them you don't even hit at all in the clip, it's like an alternation between the fundamental and the overtone.
 
#157 · (Edited)
Some additional insights from Lieb via Joe Allard. HTH.

EURO;
http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=7864

USA;http://upbeat.com/lieb/purchase.htm

The crystalization of this can go many ways, IMHO.
I think the Lieb DVD is a huge assist for people.There also is a great ROBERTO DVD coming out soon....from Liebs RECENT clinic in NYC. Very insightful yet very to the point.I mean- after all these years- his mind never stopped. Very inspiring! Check, ROBERTOS site at Robertos Winds for more info soon- probally in a few weeks. ( Stuff also w/ Lovano and Konitz but more on that later via Robertos Winds )


For longevity's sake, BUY THE DVD.
Ya know its something all of us use daily.

From Saxophone Journal
Devloping a Personal Saxophone Sound

by David Liebman

It seems to me, as a former student of Joseph Allard, that every saxophonist should have studied with this master teacher. This book, by one of Allard's most well-known students, the jazz saxophonist David Liebman, provides an opportunity to better understand Allard's ideas. Although Liebman is best known in the jazz world, it is important to bear in mind that this is not a jazz book. It will be equally useful to all saxophonists.

This book is unusual in that it concentrates almost solely on aspects of tone production, going into detail not found in the majority of saxophone performance texts. The material is organized into nine chapters: Overview of the Playing Mechamism; Breathing; The Larynx; The Overtone Exercises; The Tongue: Position and Articulation; The Embouchure; Reeds and Mouthpieces; Expressive Devices; and Practicing.

In each chapter, there are clear diagrams which show the human anatomy as it responds to various playing situations, or charts which show Allard's Overtone Exercises exactly as he notates them for his students. Reed care and alteration is discussed, with specific remedies given for various tone and response problems. Inspiring advice is given about practicing and the value of establishment of a regular routine, including a sample practice schedule.

One of the most attractive qualitites of this book is its conversational tone; it is informal, yet the material is always well organized. In some of the most fascinating passages, Liebman relates the details of how such jazz greats as John Coltrane and Dexter Gordon achieved their sounds. Intermediate/advanced students, this book enables each individual player to build and maintain a strong sound, serving as a guide to solving the unique problems that come about as a result of individual physical makeup. This book would be an important and valuable addition to any teacher's library..

BTW- For the Grossman-Lieb fans- I'm sure _MOST_know of this book but...some might not.

Complete Transcription of David Liebman and Steve Grossman Solos from Live at the Lighthouse - Elvin Jones Quartet - 1972

A MUST , imho.:cool:

Elvin Jones' classic "Live at the Lighthouse" recordings have provided a generation of jazz musicians (myself definitely included) with tremendous inspiration and material for study. Liebman and Grossman raised the bar for what could be accomplished on the saxophone after assimilating the musical language of John Coltrane, and Elvin Jones was at the absolute peak of his powers. The joy these four musicians must have shared playing together still jumps out of the speakers at you, and it remains a shining example of jazz at its most vital.

Chris Potter


But- back on track with Joe Allard....some might not know of this;
http://www.joeallard.org/

Some very nice ideas and_further insights.:)

The concepts of guys like Joe, Vic Morosco and others such as Viola inspire me; I hope they help everyone too.

I sure miss Joe, and he WAS the real deal. What a BASS CLARINET sound too.;)

If you can find it- "The Master Speaks", is helpful within all this as well.
In any case, ENJOY. HTH:)
 
#158 · (Edited)
Razzy said:
There's no real reason to keep the topic so focused on one thing.
Evidently. Why would we want to do that? :cool:

Look. I've posted off-topic comments on plenty of threads so I don't want to be waxing hypocritical here. But this thread to me illustrates the worst in how folks can hijack threads. Frankly, a lot of the comments are pretty informative, but why not in another thread that someone starts up?

Phil made a simple suggestion and I think he wanted to keep this very clean and uncomplicated. I made a joke about it, but I think it really almost is Zen in its seeming simplicity and yet that simplicity has been obscured, if not somewhat mauled. There seems to be no consideration for Phil, or for beginners and inexperienced intermediates who will be overwhelmed with information extraneous to Phil's exercise.

Phil himself asked several times for people to please stop obscuring his suggestion. The way Phil has been ignored just seems very disingenuous. Is it that hard to show a little self-restraint and honour the man's unheeded requests?
 
#159 ·
gary said:
Is it that hard to show a little self-restraint and honour the man's unheeded requests?
Yes, given his history here, and the angry way in which he has been known to respond to rational thinking and reason.

Beginners can and should be presented with many different viewpoints on any given topic. Not everyone can have their way in terms of controlling the discussion of a public forum, especially when their attitude towards other players is so often maladjusted and uninformed. "What the hell would you want to play classical saxophone for?" and other rude comments have gone equally unheeded by players who really should be sticking up for their genre. Phil didn't need others to hijack this thread; he did it himself and in doing so invited more hijackers. If he had approached it a little differently and been a little less hardheaded in his responses things would've gone a lot more smoothly.

Here's a suggestion that is a) actually possible and b) would solve the problems seen here: have these exercises posted as an article in the beginners section or tone development section of the actual site, rather than on the forum where information can and will be attacked and skewed.
 
#160 ·
gary said:
Phil made a simple suggestion and I think he wanted to keep this very clean and uncomplicated. I made a joke about it, but I think it really almost is Zen in its seeming simplicity and yet that simplicity has been obscured, if not somewhat mauled. There seems to be no consideration for Phil, or for beginners and inexperienced intermediates who will be overwhelmed with information extraneous to Phil's exercise.

Phil himself asked several times for people to please stop obscuring his suggestion. The way Phil has been ignored just seems very disingenuous. Is it that hard to show a little self-restraint and honour the man's unheeded requests?
i do opologize if my input has been disruptive. I assumed people would be interested in the exercises in thier original form and context. generally something this simple from such a great master as joe allard would not be considered something that would be good to make up a "new" more simpler version. The import and function of these exercises is of unimaginal value when left alone as origianlly created. if someone wishes to learn joe allards way of playing and practicing then they can and should find an authentic teacher and stop reading bogus web forums i guess after all. I was however conveying information that is valuable and rather hard to come by.
 
#161 ·
Razzy said:
Sanchophone, you need to work on hitting the first overtone cleanly. Your octave switch is fine but the actual overtone is not a clear sound yet. Some of them you don't even hit at all in the clip, it's like an alternation between the fundamental and the overtone.
Razzy, Thanks for your comments.

You are right I am strugling to get a clear overonte first. I am playing with a rubber link which is not an easy with overtones as my JJ ESP or other pieces, but I think I will stick to it rather than moving to an easier option. I will see how it goes after few more days.

It would be great if someone with a higher level than me would post a clip showing a cleaner execution of the exercise.
 
#162 ·
Thanks gary, and thanks Phil.

No need to apologize for serious input here. I've been playing professionally for 30 years or so and I still find this thought provoking and inspiring.

It fascinates me to follow Phil's statement that as a mouthpiece maker, he knows how the mouthpiece works and thus, how the player should approach it. I never really thought of it as quite such a purely 'mechanical' system. And I certainly never understood Allard's ideas until lately. I have the video from years back (The Master Speaks) but found it foreign and impenetrable and Allard to be very grouchy, so I assigned it to a dusty shelf from which (metaphorically) it has been rescued.

Thanks for your input and experience; more please. :)
 
#163 ·
Phil,

I have finished my lesson. I can easliy do the octave slur/jump downs from f down to A#, with more mouthpiece taken. Can't waint to know what's next?

-Zach
 
#165 ·
Fell Boyzs said:
Phil,

I have finished my lesson. I can easliy do the octave slur/jump downs from f down to A#, with more mouthpiece taken. Can't waint to know what's next?

-Zach
Let's give everyone a couple of weeks then I'll post the next one. It's as important to practice them as it is just to be able to do them. Phil
 
#166 ·
You're supposed to do it slow and really feel:

1) Whats going on in your throat, to accomplish this,

2) How it feels and how can you keep the same "open" feeling, while playing "normally" or playing anything else--scales, tunes,etc.

3)Feel the space, in-between the octave...Where does it finally change from the higher note, to the lower? How long before it "breaks" into the lower octave?

The main purpose is to control the laranx and realize how it feels to play "open", noticing the more harmonics in your tone, as you open up.

You're not supposed to race through, for 2 minutes, then say, "OK, I did my Allard thing--now, on to that Chris Potter lick that I've been trying to play for the last 6 mos."--if thats the case...you ain't accomplishing anything.

If you spent 1 hr, on 2 notes, youre not wasting time but really getting somewhere--its not about doing it all, every practice session.

Think of it like doing a yoga pose, you are in a state of extreme concentration & awareness..trying to listen & feel everything that is going on to accomplish this excercise. THATS HOW YOU DO THIS STUFF.
 
#167 ·
I was looking for my copy of the Liebman Guide to a Personal Saxophone Sound book, from what I remember he had a really good breakdown of these principals and what goes on physically for those that are interested. It all comes down to learning how to play with a relaxed airstream and being able to control it to get the sound you are hearing.....
 
#168 ·
Phil Barone said:
Let's give everyone a couple of weeks then I'll post the next one. It's as important to practice them as it is just to be able to do them. Phil
Not a problem, Phil. I am not meaning to push this. I understand the need to not just to be able to do it, but to keep practicing it. Not a prob!

-Zach
 
#169 ·
Man, this is SOOO helpful.......... I can definitely hear a difference already, and I've incorporated the exercise into my daily routine....... thanks Phil.......... I'm starting to rethink the whole equipment thing, in the sense that this has made a much bigger difference than my drawer full of mouthpieces, most any of which would work fine except for the player :) I've settled on a "comfortable" setup, and am planning to go from there........ why didn't anyone ever tell me it wasn't the equipment, but the player?? (just kidding, Gary!)

Al
 
#170 ·
This is great info you are sharing Phil. The concepts are good and along with similar things I've been doing I'm noticing improvement. great stuff for any level player.

As far as how much mpc I'm taking in I take as much in as to not go over the threshold of less volume or getting distortions. By taking a bit more I've noticed more volume and resonance but going too far has a negative effect. I'm looking for the sweet spot and I think it is more than I've used in the past.
 
#171 ·
Mike Cesati said:
This is great info you are sharing Phil. The concepts are good and along with similar things I've been doing I'm noticing improvement. great stuff for any level player.

As far as how much mpc I'm taking in I take as much in as to not go over the threshold of less volume or getting distortions. By taking a bit more I've noticed more volume and resonance but going too far has a negative effect. I'm looking for the sweet spot and I think it is more than I've used in the past.
Mike,

Trust me, you can't take too much. There will be a noticeable diminished sound quality if you take a big gob but it will become refined in a couple of weeks. Phil
 
#174 ·
martysax said:
Reminds me of an old sailor song:
"A Gob is a Gob,
Wherever he may be..."
Anybody remember the rest of the lyrics?
Isn't it, "I've gob a lovely bunch of coconuts..."

:D
 
#175 ·
Just out of curiosity, why are these exercises so much easier on the Link I borrowed from a guy I know 2 days ago than on the Dukoff I have been playing for 8 months and the C** I have been playing on for 3 years?
 
#176 ·
Martinman said:
Just out of curiosity, why are these exercises so much easier on the Link I borrowed from a guy I know 2 days ago than on the Dukoff I have been playing for 8 months and the C** I have been playing on for 3 years?
I could see that. Probably because the Dukoff has a smaller chamber. Phil
 
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