What happened to all those SGUnison horns

[StevenW]

These straw-man arguments continue to miss the issue. Several people on this thread have stated the issue, as have many people on the various other threads regarding the SG Unison. One last time for SteveW's benefit: STEVE GOODSON REFUSES TO COMMUINCATE WITH HIS CUSTOMERS. This has been the problem for months, and it is the one thing that NOBODY here has an explanation for.

Now, for the icing on the cake: Steve Goodson is posting like a madman on the Yahoo saxophone forum mentioned by Grumps. At the time that we were being told about yet another health problem, at the time that his customers here were clamoring for some information about their orders, as the time when Brian (whose claims I cannont dismiss simply because he is "only" one person) is pleading for Steve Goodson to contact him about his refund, at a time when Steve Goodson is mysteriously absent from this forum, he is becoming a major presence on the Yahoo forum.

And yet he can't manage to find the time to pick up the phone or answer his email. StevenW, THIS IS THE ISSUE!

The message log of the Yahoo Groups forum you are citing shows you as making an inaccurate statement. Steve Goodson posted to that forum ONCE in August (yesterday to be exact) and all the previous posts are July 6th or older. Other than the post about checking your sax on a flight posted yesterday, it has been six weeks - before the WSC and before Goodson took ill - since his last posts there.

You have mistated numerous things - Goodson and Brian HAVE been in contact, indirectly via an agreed third party, and directly. You personally have NO basis to make your claim that they have not.

Goodson has posted he is NOT responding or particpating here. His posted outlined that he is UNWELL.

What is your agenda, specially as you, and Grumps, repeatively cite so called "facts" that are nothing more than internet postings?? Both of you have made repeated claims that are impossible for any of us, as third parties, to have actually access to the full facts.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some stage the sleeping lion of Unison Corporate simply looks to people making claims from 2nd and 3rd hand information to make up for the damages the obviously intend to cause with their campaign.

The coordinating other sites lampooning SOTW posters and SOTW go a long ways to adding creedance that it isn't just a misunderstanding, but a campaign to damage Unison, Goodson, SOTW, Coats, and Myself.

Some facts are simple to establish - Goodson is NOT posting here and people are saying they are waiting for the SG Model horns.

The rest is internet stuff that can't be stubstantiated, and we all should be careful drawing too much from sources like that.

StevenW 8)

[Grumps]

Well Mr. C. promotion can count as compensation in my book.... but even if you disagree with that, you'll have to admit that you're not just "another customer". You are on the company team, in the inner circle and are privy to much more than the average customer in regard to these horns.

I've still had no valid response to my second concern; why there continues to be an aggressive push for orders and deposits when it is admitted that production continues to lag far behind previous orders. I can see why you would want to be considered just another customer when it comes to this question.


p.s. I greatly appreciate Mr. C's past contributions to SOTW

[morgan]

Steve Goodson is posting like a madman on the Yahoo saxophone forum

Perhaps I'm not using that forum correctly? I only find a total of two postings by SG since July 1.

[pknight]

The message log of the Yahoo Groups forum you are citing shows you as making an inaccurate statement. Steve Goodson posted to that forum ONCE in August (yesterday to be exact) and all the previous posts are July 6th or older. Other than the post about checking your sax on a flight posted yesterday, it has been six weeks - before the WSC and before Goodson took ill - since his last posts there.

Try again. Search for Steve Goodson. I found 6 posts between the dates you mention, one in August two in July and three in June, all after after June 6.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saxamaphone/

We have your word about the unstated "facts" regarding Brian's case. What is YOUR basis for these "facts"?

The notion that there is some sort of campaign against Steve Goodson is laughable. And your threats about the "sleeping lion" must be a joke. Aside from checking the Yahoo site and noting Goodson's posts, I have not logged into any sax site aside from this one in months. I have never posted on another sax site in my life. I think that it would be hard for the cooridnators of the conspiracy to recruit me.

What is my agenda? Well, like many people here I sat through a flood of hype about these horns. I heard Steve Goodson go on and on about how there was no other sax manufactaurer in the world more open and forthcoming with information about its products than Unison. I saw testimonials from people that had me believing that Steve Goodson was the most brilliant sax player, repair tech, and then designer, to ever walk the face of the earth.

I then saw Steve Goodson dismiss, in a condescending manner, anyone who dared to raise any questions or critisims about his horns. I saw the FOS (Friends of Steve) jump down the throats of people who raised questions. I saw Steve Goodson use SOTW to hawk his products and services throughout the forum.

However, the only issue that I have been emphasizing is his lack of customer service, specifically his tendency to ignore complaints. This is not something that I am making up. It is something that has been bouncing around for six years. There are just too many people who have made similar claims for this to be a fantasy, as you suggest. However, it is your right to dismiss these claims because they are just "internet stuff." However, please note that the same can be said for your statements.

Steve Goodson failed to address this issue in his "farewell," although it was clearly the major concern of the posters. That he did not address it is illuminating. You cannot help resolve this issue yourself, but it is interesting that you refuse to even acknowledge that it might be a problem.

My agenda is that anyone coming here not just see the glowing reports about the Goodson horns (which, BTW, I still believe, in the absence of evidence to the contrary and because I believe Paul Coats), but get both sides of the story.

Finally, I have no basis for judging Steve Goodson's health claims. I am not about to say that these are not accurate. I do hope, however, that he is following his physician's advice in all matters, since it was health problems that were offered as the reason for service delays/problems last year, and as far back as 1998. He needs to take care of himself.

Unlike Steve Goodson, I am not going to leave the SOTW forum, but I am going to stop posting on this topic. Really, this time. If people want to stick their heads in the sand, I say let them.

[pknight]

Morgan,

My apologies to you and StevenW. I was originally looking for posts during the time in which Steve Goodson was not posting here, which was from May until this week. He was quite active during that time, but as you and StevenW point out, not so much during July. I had overlooked the the July time frame that was specified, and was looking for posts since June.

My mistake. Mea culpa. So sorry. All my fault.

[Paul Coats]

Grumps said: "Well Mr. C. promotion can count as compensation in my book.... but even if you disagree with that, you'll have to admit that you're not just "another customer". You are on the company team, in the inner circle and are privy to much more than the average customer in regard to these horns."

1. I wish you would instruct me on how I might turn whatever "promotion" into money in my pocket, as I am unable to figure that out.

2. Yes. I am also privy to information about other companies and products, too. I have tested products, written reports, done "troubleshooting", for several companies. I know people at most of the major manufacturers of instruments and accessories. I often tell people, "No, I don't know everything about the saxophone, but I would bet you I know the guy who knows what you need to know."

I was asked what was what about all this, and I reported things I saw with my own eyes, my own experiences, and now you call my honesty and motives into question.

You further commented: "I've still had no valid response to my second concern; why there continues to be an aggressive push for orders and deposits when it is admitted that production continues to lag far behind previous orders. I can see why you would want to be considered just another customer when it comes to this question."

I don't see any evidence of "an agressive push" for orders and deposits. I do see people lined up with cash in hand wanting to place orders. No one has forced them to do so. Also I seem to remember reading a statement in one of the threads here on SOTW by Steve Goodson to the effect that people who have paid deposits and ordered the instruments will have those orders filled first.

I repeat, Grumps, I have not received, nor expect to receive, money, compensation, promotion, stock, or anything else you listed from Unison.

[Mike Ruhl]

blah blah blah...what's the point of this little pissing contest?

[Paul Coats]

You are correct, Mike. Thank you. I will comment no further on this subject.

[alinkletter]

Does any one else find it kind of funny that known associates, Paul C. and StevenW, who it would seem are trying to gang up on others here, are trying to suggest that clearly unassociated persons are conspiratorially motivated?

I find that really, really ironic, personally.

Paul, you boasted a little while ago about how you did not put down a deposit, but rather paid the price in full, in advance, in order to suggest that others who have put down deposits, and who are worried, are unreasonably anxious.

Let me ask an obvious question, to which I'm sure you know the answer, Paul: How much in excess of the average customer's deposit was the amount of your full purchase? If you paid more than $1500 (the publicized wholesale price, I believe) for your horn - minus the extra neck addition - I will be very seriously surprised. I would in fact predict that you paid a price for the horn significantly lower than that.

You don't seem to be the kind of man who can tell a bald-faced lie, when there is no denying that is what it is. So tell us how much you paid for your horn, and that you are an endorser without monetary compensation, in the price of your horn. I want to be able to take you at your word, and I am willing to.

[Claus]

Calm down, everyone.

This thread has nothing more to do with exchanging views about saxophones or personal experiences with dealers.

This is becoming increasingly personal with wild accusations being thrown around. I find Stevens conspiracy theory just as ridiculous as accusing Paul C. of lying. Unless anybody has any tangible evidence for any of these assertions you better keep them to yourselves.

Apart from that it seems that nothing really new can be added at this point so perhaps we all better let this matter rest for a while and remember that we are here to help each other as fellow musicians.

[Brian]

A simple clarification to StevenW 's mistaken information ...

Yes, I have been in contact with Mr. Goodson recently through a third party. But there has been no direct communication as StevenW claims to have knowledge of.

Part of this may be due to Mr. Goodson's health issues, and I believe they are real.

I am optimisticly hopeful of an iminent resolve and will not leave any hanging threads if that happens, but let everyone know publicly.

[Grumps]

1. I wish you would instruct me on how I might turn whatever "promotion" into money in my pocket, as I am unable to figure that out.

Even Mr. Goodson's Yahoo post promoted you, your abilities and your band. That sort of promotion leads to notoriety, referrals, gigs, jobs and/or educational/instructional opportunities, and as I said, is a form of compensation. Never did I call you a liar. I only disclosed known facts and my take upon them after you referred to yourself as "just another customer".

I do see people lined up with cash in hand wanting to place orders. No one has forced them to do so.

And how does that make you feel knowing that such a backlog exists and orders taken last fall remain unfulfilled? So far we've had three testimonials regarding delivered horns. Two were unsatisfactory. Harbingers of worse to come? Together with the customer service issues, I believe so. As to nobody forcing these folks to spend their money, well they certainly were encouraged to do so right here on this forum; an effort you continue to this very day.

[Stacey]

1. I wish you would instruct me on how I might turn whatever "promotion" into money in my pocket, as I am unable to figure that out.

Even Mr. Goodson's Yahoo post promoted you, your abilities and your band. That sort of promotion leads to notoriety, referrals, gigs, jobs and/or educational/instructional opportunities, and as I said, is a form of compensation. Never did I call you a liar. I only disclosed known facts and my take upon them after you referred to yourself as "just another customer".

I'm confident that we've established that Paul Coats is, indeed, a Unison Endorsing Artist. In fact, we've also established that Mr. Coats is getting precious little for his endorsement, although he might in theory become a rich man from follow-on work resulting from notoriety gained from Steve Goodson's praise and Unison's publicity. I have no doubt that legally these things qualify as compensation.

Now that we've clarified these dirty little secrets, I find that my horn's ETA is... well, no different than before. I also find that my opinion of Mr. Coats is... well, totally unchanged. Well, I AM a little disappointed that he has shattered any remaining illusions I might be harboring that saxophonists could command endorsement deals similar to those enjoyed by third-tier professional athletes.

I do see people lined up with cash in hand wanting to place orders. No one has forced them to do so.

And how does that make you feel knowing that such a backlog exists and orders taken last fall remain unfulfilled? So far we've had three testimonials regarding delivered horns. Two were unsatisfactory. Harbingers of worse to come? Together with the customer service issues, I believe so. As to nobody forcing these folks to spend their money, well they certainly were encouraged to do so right here on this forum; an effort you continue to this very day.

As to "how it makes Paul Coats feel knowing that such a backlog exists and orders taken last fall remain unfulfilled", I can speak only for myself. I don't CARE how it makes Paul feel, and I find it totally irrelevant. How does Michael Jordan feel when there are production or distribution issues with Nike shoes?

One correction - since this thread is titled "What happened to all those SGUnison horns?", and is not tenor-specific, we should note that there have been a whopping TWO people who reported on their horns. Most of us recall FunBun and his tenor, but many have forgotten L1 and his alto. L1 posted a brief positive review, and then apparently went under the knife for spinal surgery, and has not posted since May 25th.

[Grumps]

Stacey,
Ask your dealer if you can have your deposit back. Have some patience and wait till you can test play the actual horn you you can take home with you. Don't be a schmuck.

[StevenW]

Stacey,
Ask your dealer if you can have your deposit back. Have some patience and wait till you can test play the actual horn you you can take home with you. Don't be a schmuck.

Grumpo,

Are you publically attempting to discourage sales of SG Model Saxophones, which could be damaging to the dealer and Unison?

[Hurling Frootmig]

Stacey,
Ask your dealer if you can have your deposit back. Have some patience and wait till you can test play the actual horn you you can take home with you. Don't be a schmuck.

Grumpo,

Are you publically attempting to discourage sales of SG Model Saxophones, which could be damaging to the dealer and Unison?

It seems like he is offering reasonable advice. Try before you buy. Are the first 100 or even 1000 horns off the line going to be more magical than the next 100 or next 1000? Personally, I'd rather wait a little while for all of the new production issues to get ironed out.

[Morry]

Mr. Coats....if we go to see you play somewhere, will you be playing the Unison horns?

[Mike Ruhl]

Grumps: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
Steven W: Yes it is.
Grumps: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
Steven W: No it isn't.
Grumps: It is!
Steven W: It is not.
Grumps: Look, you just contradicted me.
Steven W: I did not.
Grumps: Oh you did!!
Steven W: No, no, no.
Grumps: You did just then.
Steven W: Nonsense!
Grumps: Oh, this is futile!
Steven W: No it isn't.
Grumps: I came here for a good argument.
Steven W: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
Grumps: An argument isn't just contradiction.
Steven W: It can be.
Grumps: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Steven W: No it isn't.
Grumps: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
Steven W: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Grumps: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
Steven W: Yes it is!
Grumps: No it isn't!
Grumps: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)

Steven W: No it isn't.


What a stupid concept! (with apologies to Python fans everywhere)

[Stacey]

Grumps, I appreciate your advice that I should change my present course of action, and in particular I appreciate the inference that if I do not change my course of action I am a "schmuck".

As it happens, I do have 25 years at the saxophone. I have no doubt that any number of people, possibly including you, can come forward with numbers and achievements that make my 25 years look positively schmucklike. Frankly, I don't care.

I can only hope that seeing me lose my cool, the moderator will move a step closer to locking this little pissing war thread and forcing a different one to spring up in a different place.

I choose to live under the belief that after these years, I am indeed a fully-grown, intelligent man. If I choose to leave a $1000 deposit in the hands of a dealer who is also a dear friend, a friend who has shown time and time again that he will treat me right as a friend and as a businessman, a friend who has indeed played these horns, who speaks very highly of them, and is a far more accomplished saxophone player than I am - th`t hardly seems stupid, irresponsible, or schmucklike.

Rather, if I, who haven't played tenor sax in 15 years, were to wait until my local Unison dealer (who doesn't know me from Adam) happened to have a satin silver tenor with optional kangaroo pads in stock, and then go play test the exact horn I wanted to buy, then I think I could draw two conclusions: 1) I would have a damned long wait, given the configuration I'm looking for, and 2) I wouldn't be able to tell ANYTHING, because it will take weeks for me to get my tenor chops back in order. In cases like this, where it would be almost impossible to get firsthand knowledge of everything I should learn, the most reasonable course of action would seem to be for me to enlist the help of people I trust who ARE in a position to gather a little firsthand knowledge, and accept the fact that many things are going to be subjective surprises that will not surface until I've had a chance to grow into the the horn, in a sense.


For the record: I am not a Unison Endorsing Artist. I am just an ordinary customer. I have nothing to gain except the valuable notoriety that comes from having ones name appear on SOTW. I can not speak for or against these horns personally; neither can I offer any advice to the stupid schmucks out there who may be trying to buy one, except to offer the consolation that you are not alone.

[Andrew D]

I do not think anyone is a schmuck for putting hard earned$$ to buy a horn of there choosing, however it would seem to be a little short sighted to buy a horn that you have never played, worse still to put money down on a horn that has not even been made.

Selmer, Kielwerth, Yana & Yam to a degree have a pedigree in saxophone production, but still I would not buy any, without the opportunity to try these horns, take the new ref Alto, I recently played one for a short time, & was quite impressed with the horn for a number of reasons however I have not rang my dealer to make an order, because each horn is different. I do not want to put my dealer in a position of ordering a horn and then tell him I not happy with it, for me it's just not good business practice. It also can lead to other potential problems, Brian's problem being one of them.

BTW A good friend of mine who is a pro & primarily uses selmers did have the opportunity to test-drive and buy a SG unison, and passed on it, the same guy bought a cannonball a a few days later, money was not the issue.

Bottom line is though, people have the right to spend there money as they wish.