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Index of Classical Tenor Mouthpieces

29K views 54 replies 28 participants last post by  Zebedee 
#1 · (Edited)
OK, here it is. All of these were tested on my Keilwerth SX-90R tenor, with a standard Selmer Ligature (except where noted) and a Vandoren 3 1/2 traditional reed. I'm not going to comment too much on intonation, as every horn is different, but this should give anyone looking for a mouthpiece at least an idea of the characteristics of each. Oh, and because of the discussions about French vs. Rascher pieces that went on last time, I'm not going to attempt to categorize them that way this time. When possible, I tried multiple pieces of each mouthpiece to get a feel for consistency. (BTW, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm bashing J.J. Babbitt in this. The thing is, they make a very inconsistent product, which you REALLY notice when test multiple mouthpieces of the same type.)


Selmer S-80 (C* Facing) -
Medium dark sound, small roll-over baffle at the tip. Medium square chamber. Fairly "spread" sound, good immediate response. Very middle of the road mouthpiece. Quality is inconsistent. I tried 4 of these and two of them were similar, but two were completely different down to the feel of the rubber.

Selmer S-90 (180 facing) - Slightly darker than the S-80, small roll-over baffle. Square chamber with small arches. Larger chamber than the S-80, but not as large as the Rascher or Caravan pieces. Response was difficult in the low register. I tried 3 of these and they were very consistent.

Selmer Soloist (C*)-Arched "horseshoe" chamber design, similar to the old Soloists. Medium bright sound, slightly brighter than S-80. Good hard rubber stock. Didn't get to try multiples.

Selmer LT- Medium round chamber, very small rollover baffle. Slightly darker than the other Selmer pieces, with a more focused sound. Rubber is softer on these out of the two I tried. Response is very good.

Selmer Metal (C* Facing)- Small round chamber. Brightest of the Selmer pieces with a very focused sound. Response is excellent. Didn't get to try multiples on this, but the metal is very soft. (Tested with Selmer 404 lig)

Rousseau Classic (5R facing)-Brightest of all the pieces I tried. Medium chamber, with an arch design. Long roll-over baffle. Excellent response, particularly in the high range, very focused sound. These can be inconsistent, so it's recommended to try several before settling on one.

Rousseau New Classic (NC4 facing)-
Less bright than the regular classic, with more focus. Still the second brightest piece that I tried. Less baffle and a larger chamber as well. Excellent response across the whole range of the horn. Very inconsistent. Try several of these before you buy.

Morgan (3C) -Very dark piece, round chamber. There is a very slight rollover. Not as dark as Caravan or Rascher, but still very dark. EXCELLENT response. Very free blowing. I have no idea about the consistencey of these, but I would assume that they are very consistent since they are hand faced.

Rascher - Incredibly dark piece, bordering on "tubby." Lots of resistance in them, bordering on stuffy. Mostly flat baffle, HUGE round chamber. Difficult response. I tried two, and they seemed consistent, but they are made by Babbitt so it's tough to say. I want to note that the Rascher style players use these to great effect, and I am not trained to use them. I think that this is a piece that you have to get used to.

Caravan- Very dark, although not as dark as the Rascher. Lots of resistance but not stuffy. Mostly flat baffle. Better response than the Rascher, but see my notes above on that. I could only try one of these.

Vandoren V5 (T27)- Fairly bright, similar to the S-80. Medium round chamber with a small "squeeze". Poor response in low register. Long roll-over baffle. Very consistent pieces. (Tested with Optimum lig.)

Vandoren Optimum (TL3) - Darker than the V5, slightly larger round chamber. Very even response across the whole instrument, similar to the Morgan. Rollover baffle. More focus than the V5. Very consistent pieces, although the one that I use has been "perfected" a bit. (Tested with Optimum lig) (For this thread, I tried a stock piece as well as my own.)

Hite Artist 128 - Only comes in one facing (.95). The one I tried was produced prior to Mr. Hite's death. Bright piece with some "edge" that needs to be tamed. Unlike the alto one, this could conceivably be used for classical work. Round chamber. Very good response across the entire range, with the altissimo being especially good. I had to use an alto lig to try this, and the only one that I had was a Vandoren Optimum. I have no idea about the consistency of this piece, because they are being produced by Babbitt now, and not hand finished. I will try and get a "stock" piece and update this thread when I do.

Bamber Concert (5) - Horseshoe chamber, very similar to a Soloist. Long rollover baffle, medium bright sound. Very focused. Didn't try multiples of this. Might be a good choice for someone wanting a Selmer Short-Shank that doesn't want to pay the money for one! Again, these are made by Babbitt, so consistency will be an issue.

A few small notes:

-On the consistency issue: I'm not trying to bash J.J. Babbitt or Selmer, but they tend to make pieces that are very different from one to another. Selmer doesn't have this problem except in the S-80, and I suspect that it is because they produce FAR MORE of that type of piece than any of their others. On ANY of these, including the ones noted as "very consistent", I highly recommend trying multiples of the same piece.

-On the Rascher pieces: I am not a Rascher player (duh!) so I'm not used to these types of pieces. If you have been trained in that environment, or you play a vintage horn (non-Selmer), you will probably like these more than I did. I didn't have access to a Buescher (or Martin) to try them on the horn for which they were really designed.

-I have started working on a third thread like this, for soprano pieces, but it will be a bit before it's finished. Between Real Lifetm and my wallet size right now, I'll need a few weeks before it's ready.

-One last bit: If you want my personal recommendations, please PM or e-mail me. I don't want to color this anymore than I already have. BTW, if you are a high school student, I HIGHLY recommend that you stick to a middle of the road mouthpiece before you get into college.
 
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#3 ·
Your review of the Selmer S-90 made me realize that it may be the mouthpiece that is inhibiting my response in the lower register (I use Selmer S-90 190's on Tenor and Alto). It was never really noticeable with a Vandoren 3, but ever since I switched to 3.5's, I've had significant difficulties with the response down there, although it's gotten better. Maybe I need to try out some new classical mouthpieces after all...
 
#4 ·
jabcool52 said:
Your review of the Selmer S-90 made me realize that it may be the mouthpiece that is inhibiting my response in the lower register (I use Selmer S-90 190's on Tenor and Alto). It was never really noticeable with a Vandoren 3, but ever since I switched to 3.5's, I've had significant difficulties with the response down there, although it's gotten better. Maybe I need to try out some new classical mouthpieces after all...
It's a common complain with those pieces...I think that Selmer needed to extend the baffle a bit further into the mouthpiece to compensate for the larger chamber. Either that or make the baffle a bit larger/higher...but that would have defeated the purpose of the larger chamber. It's kind of an odd mouthpiece because it's almost like Selmer said "We need a darker piece...let's take the S-80 and make the chamber bigger," but they didn't extend the baffle, which is normally what "guides" the airflow into the bigger chamber...
 
#5 ·
Really, I find the response on the S90's to be wonderful - much better than S80's. I'd say that this is just my embouchure showing its colors, since I'm used to Bueschers and Raschers, except that I'm not alone in this. I've allowed some of my friends and some of my students to play on my ultra-large chambered mouthpieces - players who mostly play on S80's and LT's - and they've all commented on how easy the low register becomes.

Jabcool, going up a half size in reeds will make any mouthpiece seem less responsive.
 
#6 ·
Nice thread. Here's my thoughts:

I tried both the S90 and S80 as you did one day, but noticed very little between them. They were medium dark in tone but lackluster in response. There is a lot more to tone than just the shade of the timbre (dark, bright), and they lacked it, perhaps because the tip was too closed? It would be interesting to find one of either with a little more open facing as these ones sounded subdued.

I own both a modern Selmer Metal and a Soloist, both are faced to 'E' and the Metal hand refaced by a professional (Keith "Mojo" Bradbury). The Soloist is a little darker sounding, the Metal more lyrical and string-like. I thought the Soloist more focused and compact in it's sound, while the Metal seemed to radiate. Even before the reface the Metal sung more.
 
#8 ·
I think I'll look into the Morgan and the Vandoren TL3, but first I'm going to try out some different ligatures, like the Vandoren Optimum, and see if that fixes my response issue. If not, I'll be looking at mouthpieces again. :)
 
#9 ·
Here is my experience with classical tenor mouthpieces. For me the horn had alot to do with classical pieces.

I have two tenors a Keilwerth SX90R and a Selmer MKVI 67,XXX. Now with my jazz set up both horns work really well. However with classical pieces the Keilwerth worked really well but I couldn't get a classical piece to work on the Selmer at all. The Selmer just didn't respond well enough with the classical pieces and the horn moutpiece combinations were really uncomfortable. I know many people have had lots of success with MKVI's but it just didn't work for me. I don't want anyone to think that I am bashing Selmer horns or anything like that.

On Tenor I have tried the S80, S90 , a Rousseau NC3 and 4R and a Caravan. All of which have their ups and downs. But I really like the open chamber mouthpieces so I have stuck with the Caravan.

Chris
 
#12 ·
A.Smith said:
Just missing discussion on a few great mouthpieces. Selmer S 90 190, Selmer D soloist, Selmer C** and Vandoren T20. Would like to know what people think.
I pretty much covered those in the first post...just with different facings.

I'll say this though, I think the C** is a better facing generally that the C*.
 
#14 ·
Yes, I'm referring to the tenor model. I remember reading that the C* facing wasn't really correct proportionally on the tenor pieces in relationship to the alto pieces. (In other words, if you extrapolate the proportions on the alto mouthpiece, the tenor mouthpiece has an incorrect ratio between the tip opening and the chamber size.) I believe that the "correct" facing is actually the E but I have to check...
 
#15 ·
Please do check... I'm interested. Just based on limited play-testing, I found the D to be approximately equivalent in response. Then again, I didn't try anything larger.

J.Max said:
Yes, I'm referring to the tenor model. I remember reading that the C* facing wasn't really correct proportionally on the tenor pieces in relationship to the alto pieces. (In other words, if you extrapolate the proportions on the alto mouthpiece, the tenor mouthpiece has an incorrect ratio between the tip opening and the chamber size.) I believe that the "correct" facing is actually the E but I have to check...
 
#16 ·
just a thought

Rascher mouthpieces, not only tenor but across the board, were not intended, as I understand it, to be evaluated on a limited play testing basis. Play only that piece for an extended period of time, like weeks and months, and then a more accurate assessment is possible - that is a synopsis of what I have read
 
#17 ·
LoLa said:
just a thought

Rascher mouthpieces, not only tenor but across the board, were not intended, as I understand it, to be evaluated on a limited play testing basis. Play only that piece for an extended period of time, like weeks and months, and then a more accurate assessment is possible - that is a synopsis of what I have read
Every mouthpiece gets better as you play it. This is intended to be a synopsis of the playing characteristics of each one, designed to alieviate people asking "I want a _____ sound. What kind of mouthpiece should I buy?"

Also, in the case of Rascher pieces, they are also intended for vintage horns, Bueschers specifically. I can't try each piece on every horn in existence. They are also specific to a particular school of playing, so Rascher-trained players are obviously going to have an easier time with them than French or American School players. Frankly, if you're a Rascher School player, you're probably going to use a Caravan or Rascher mouthpiece anyway, so this thread is probably irrelevant to you. (A statement of fact, not trying to ruffle feathers.)
 
#18 ·
J.Max said:
I pretty much covered those in the first post...just with different facings.

I'll say this though, I think the C** is a better facing generally that the C*.
One significant difference in the T20 is the width of the tip rail. It's quite a different piece from it's closest relative, the T25.
 
#19 ·
Merlin said:
One significant difference in the T20 is the width of the tip rail. It's quite a different piece from it's closest relative, the T25.
Now that's interesting. I wonder why Vandoren would do that?
 
#21 ·
Interesting thread, and sadly one that needed a lot of searching to rediscover...
may I suggest adding a link to here from the stickied (alto) index?

I've been looking at mouthpieces recently, but I'm not really sure about what would suit me best. Could anyone point me to some sound clips which could help me comparing them against an S80? I'm especially interested in the Morgan 3C - though I'm afraid it might be too dark - and the Selmer LT - I've recently changed my mind about long facings.
I'd also be glad to hear opinions about the Drake Classical (according to his site, it's similar to a Soloist), though it's probably brighter than what I have in mind.

By the way, happy new year!
 
#22 ·
Never mind the LT and whatnot - I've narrowed it to either a TL4 or a 3C, but I can't really decide from there.
I'll try to see whether I can try out a TL4; however, this isn't an option for the 3C in Belgium, so additional tidbits of information which could help me in comparing them would be most welcome indeed.
Would a 3C be a move towards a lighter Rascher style tone, or rather a solid, full, rich tone?

---
By the way, S80's seem to play quite a bit better with a lengthened facing. Easier and more focused lower octave, much less difference in tone between C#2 and D2. Still needs some tweaking, or perhaps a reed in decent shape, for palm keys and altissimo.
 
#23 ·
The S-80s need to be opened up a lot to play correctly, IMO. There's an article by Paul Coats that goes into detail about it, but basically the facing system employed by Selmer doesn't go up in proportion to the size of the horn, so a C* may work on alto but the tip opening isn't the same proportion on tenor so they don't play as well.

The 3C is fairly dark, but it's nowhere near Rascher territory. In these "index" threads, I try not to opine too much on what is the "best" mouthpiece. They're very free-blowing, with just enough resistance. They're hand faced, which can't be said about any other piece on the list.

I have not tried the Drake pieces, but the interior looks very similar to a Selmer Soloist.
 
#27 ·
In my opinion, the S80 C* is a moody piece, built inconsistently, with incorrect (proportionally) facing charts. However after having mine for almost 6 months, I can easily say that your work is rewarded, better response will come. Sadly the response is still lackluster in comparison to other mouthpieces I've tried... The mouthpiece is very reed picky, giving a variety of sounds depending on the type of cut you try. With Vandoren Trad 3's, the piece can have a smooth upper register with depth, deep middle register, and soft (makes me think of pillows) lower bell tones. Hemke 3's make it more gutsy with more buzz, more ideal for soloing. Also my diaphragm vibrato is much more evident. La Voz's make it gutsier still with red tonal color and more responsive, but almost too gutsy for ensemble work. Plasticovers give a little crackle, perfect for big band. I see why teachers advise this piece, it encourages good tonal practice routines.

I am however, on the road towards a darker sound so I bought a Rascher, I'll report how I like it in a few months!
 
#28 ·
Rascher - Incredibly dark piece, bordering on "tubby." Lots of resistance in them, bordering on stuffy. Mostly flat baffle, HUGE round chamber. Difficult response. I tried two, and they seemed consistent, but they are made by Babbitt so it's tough to say. I want to note that the Rascher style players use these to great effect, and I am not trained to use them. I think that this is a piece that you have to get used to.

Caravan- Very dark, although not as dark as the Rascher. Lots of resistance but not stuffy. Mostly flat baffle. Better response than the Rascher, but see my notes above on that. I could only try one of these.
I have a tangential question...

Regarding chamber size, I'm trying to get a relative sense between mouthpiece models. I'm coming at this from the jazz side of things but I've always been curious to know whether the chambers in these types of classical pieces you mention are larger than what is considered "large chamber" in a vintage jazz piece for example, an old Otto Link. And if they are larger then I'm really curious what a mouthpiece would sound like that had a chamber like the Rascher or Caravan but with a large tip opening, say an 8. I know that those pieces do not come in those sizes but does anything like that exist?
 
#35 ·
They are a good bit larger. They also don't have the larger roll-over baffle like a Link, which creates the resistance.

Oh, and they sound TERRIBLE when opened up to that size. The intonation suffers and the tone is hollow and tubby. They just aren't designed for that volume of air. Most refacers won't even do it, because you're talking about opening one up nearly .030 inches, which is a lot, and necessitates taking off a lot of mouthpiece. A larger tip opening needs a larger baffle...that's why the larger tip Vandorens have bigger rollover baffles.
 
#29 ·
Never would I have expected to find myself here, but....

The orchestra in which I'm normally the clarinet/bass clarinet doubler is playing Lt. Kije this spring, and I haven't played any classical tenor sax since high school (and then, only in concert bands).
I don't even know where to begin looking for a mouthpiece. In pit playing, when I want to sound more legit, I put a stiffer reed on my SS Berg and that seems to keep me from sticking out. That's probably not gonna fly with the Prokofiev.

So, if someone can suggest a starting point, I'd be grateful. My horn is a Custom Z, and in jazz settings I play a 130/2 Berg--kind of a fat-sounding piece with just a tiny bit of edge.

Thanks in advance... :)
 
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